Thrive in an Empty Nest: The “Open Door” Strategy for Lasting Happiness | Gretchen Rubin

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:00] So imagine this. You’ve just finished the college drop off. You’re driving home, and for the first time in 18 or 20 years, the backseat is empty. The house is quiet. Too quiet for some of us. That silence feels like freedom, and for others, it feels like just a gaping hole. We have called this the empty nest for generations, but my friend Gretchen Rubin thinks that’s a terrible way to describe a season of life that’s actually full of opportunity. Gretchen is one of those rare people who can take a complex human struggle and find the hidden gear that just kind of makes it work. She’s the author of The Happiness Project and Life in Five Senses. And today we’re sitting down to talk about what she calls the open door transition. And we explore why some of us are what she calls book people who crave reinvention, while others are tree people who need deep roots, and how that difference can actually cause total chaos in a marriage. Once the kids are gone. We also talk about the practical and sometimes awkward new rules for tracking texting, staying close to your adult kids without becoming a burden. So excited to share this conversation with you! I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:20] Gretchen Rubin.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:01:22] Hello.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:23] So good hanging out with you. I was remembering this conversation that you and I started that you’ve now sort of, like, turned into much more of a public conversation where you were telling me, we’re hanging out at a little coffee shop on the Upper East Side, and you’re like, I’m just really thinking a lot about this whole thing, about, like, when our kids leave the house. Mhm. And the word wrapped around it that we’ve all learned for generations is empty nest. And you’re like, that feels so not good to me.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:01:48] Right, right. Nobody likes that term. Everybody agrees it’s a terrible phrase, but it sticks because it does capture something.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:56] Right? So we’re going to dive a lot into this and how you create a really cool reframe around it. But why do you think it stuck so long? Because it is. I don’t think anybody likes it.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:02:06] Nobody likes it. But I think, well, first of all, it once it gets in everybody’s head, it’s hard to replace it. But there is this idea of like that, it’s empty. You know, that there is this sense that something has changed and there has been a departure. And a lot of people talk about like the loud quiet and the empty seat at the dining room table and like, no one’s like running up and down the stairs. And so the idea of like, the emptiness. But you know what I just noticed today for the first time and it blew my mind, is empty nest. Sounds like empty nests.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:40] Are.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:02:41] The emptiness of the empty nest. And I think that’s what we have to like, really challenge ourselves is like, it’s it’s space, it’s opportunity. And then the nest is the metaphor that for children that and you know, you want your house to be like a cozy nest.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:57] The emptiness thing is really interesting because, like, I wonder if your brain almost just, like, hears it as emptiness and it, like, sees it differently.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:03:04] I don’t know. I was like, how has nobody pointed that out before? To me.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:09] That’s pretty wild. But I mean, on the one hand, I feel like some people hear that phrase and it’s associated with freedom. Yeah. It’s like, oh, finally. And then other people hear that phrase and it’s associated with sorrow. Yeah. And maybe, yes, maybe it’s just a yes and type of thing. But I know, you know, I was thinking back to when you have 24 year old daughter. Yeah. And thinking back to when we dropped her off at school, you know, college and, and there’s, you know, we’re tiny little families. There’s three of us. And we drove up and dropped her off, and she didn’t want me coming up to her room for, like, the final drop off. So my wife kind of brought her up, and they’re up there, and I’m hanging out in the car downstairs and like, 15, 20 minutes later, my wife comes down and she finds me literally snot sobbing in the car. Oh, absolutely.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:03:58] And what was going through your mind? What was going through your mind?

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:02] I was just like this. Things will never be the same.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:04:06] Things will never be the same.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:08] Yeah. I mean, is that what you. Because you’ve been talking to so many people about this now, is that common?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:04:12] Everything is common. Everything is normal. And that’s part of what’s confusing is every reaction. Everything is felt like every rage. Some people feel so free and some people feel so abandoned, and some people feel like they’re closer to their children when their children have some independence, like some children are very difficult. And so it’s actually easy, like it’s easier to be close to them when there’s some space. Some are feel bereft. But it’s funny that you say that because I remember when we were driving home, we did. We did the drop off driving home like we had like a 3.5 hour drive and, um, you know, it was this sort of silent and quiet and, uh, Jamie said to me, you know, she’ll be fine. And I said, I know she’ll be fine, she’ll be fine and we’ll be fine, but it will never be the same. And he said, no, it will never be the same. And so I think part of it is the poignance of just the end of a season of life. Even apart from now, you can travel. Now, everything else, whether it’s good or bad, it is the end of a season of life and it’s always hard to see things come to an end. And it’s tied up in our own mortality, our own sense of our own lives kind of ratcheting up a notch, you know?

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:26] And it’s really interesting what you bring up also about the fact that some people like we make assumptions, you know, so I’m like, oh, this must be devastating for everybody. And maybe it is for a lot of people in their own way. But maybe there are also there are family situations where there’s a lot of tension, there’s a lot of discomfort, there’s a lot of strife, and relationships aren’t great. And in that context. Maybe it’s actually something where everybody exhales at that moment and kind of says.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:05:53] Well, I think that’s a really important point. And that’s one thing that I think is important for people to remember. And it’s maybe comforting is that you may be experiencing it as a negative, but other people can experience it as, as a positive. And so I think it’s helpful to realize, like, there are other ways to see it. And like one of the most kind of touching things somebody told me was I was talking to a father and he said I had a really bad divorce, was very contentious and a big issue with custody, and we thought about it all the time. But then my daughter went to college, and although I hadn’t been the kind of father that I always imagined that I would be, now I’m back on track. I’m a dad, just like all the other dads. I can come to town when I want. I can take her out to dinner with her roommates. Like to him, it was a restoration of, like, his vision of fatherhood. And so I think it’s just comforting for people to feel like, well, for me, I’m feeling a big loss, but maybe for other people this is working out. And somehow there’s sort of a strange comfort in knowing that there are different ways to experience things. They’re not just, oh my gosh, I’ve got a giant gaping hole in my life that nothing can fill. Well, you feel that way, and that’s important. But or maybe you’re married to somebody who doesn’t feel that way. It allows us to show more compassion to other people and ourselves, because we see people are having a whole confusing range of responses.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:08] That brings up something really interesting also. Right, because we assume that our response is going to be pretty similar to other people. But even within a relationship, like if you’re partnered with somebody at that moment, you may be experiencing it totally different than they are.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:07:22] Yes, and that’s very confusing. And there’s something that’s called splitting ambivalence.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:26] What’s that?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:07:26] So this is when because it’s confusing and you’re feeling like things that like opposites, you split the ambivalence. So one person is like, this is so sad. It’ll never be the same. Our family is gone. Well, I miss her so much. And then the other person like. But this is great. We wanted her to be independent. This is like all our dreams come true. This is great. Now we can do what we want. Instead of both people saying like, well, in some ways it’s good, and in some ways it’s bad because it’s kind of hard. You know how we always want to be binary. It’s like we just want things to be like. yes,

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:56] make it clear. Black, or white.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:07:57] Black or white, yes or no. And so they split the ambivalence and then they polarize each other, because the more one person says, like, how are you not seeing this loss? The other person is like, how are you not understanding that this is okay? And so it is. I think it can be really surprising in a couple where one person I know you love a good distinction, Jonathan. So let me let me try this out on you. So there are book people and tree people. Book people are people who like to start a new chapter. They turn over a new leaf and they think, oh, I’ll reinvent myself. And like, they like that, you know, like a friend of mine said, everybody should reinvent themselves every ten years. And so they like that feeling of like turning a page tree. People want to be rooted in place. They want to grow and flourish, but they want to stay rooted. And so what happens sometimes is that you have people that are sort of acting like tree people because their child keeps them in one place, but then but then the kids are gone and the book person says, this is great, let’s move to Portugal. Let’s move to the beach. Like, let’s shake things up. Let’s get an RV and drive around the country. The other person is like, what are you talking about? This is our home. These are our friends. These are our memories. Like, how could you leave that behind? Because they didn’t understand this about themselves. And neither is right. Neither is wrong. But sometimes in a couple it can cause a lot of tension.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:11] I can totally see that, um, somebody is like, oh, freedom.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:09:14] Yes, exactly.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:15] The other person says no. Like we get to now, just like root deeper here and go deeper into community and spend more time with friends and join this group. And that group.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:09:24] Exactly. And I wanted to. Yeah. And you could see how they could get really frustrated with each other. But but sometimes I just, you know how it is if you have a vocabulary to talk about these differences, sometimes it’s easier, it makes it less personal. It’s just like, oh, I understand why you’re thinking about things the way you are, and here’s why I’m seeing things in a different way. And let’s talk about it. Rather than like you’re heartless or you’re so rigid, you know, which is how it can sometimes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:50] Don’t you see what’s really happening here?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:09:52] And they’re both right. Of course, both people are right. And both people, you know, they both have they’re both coming from a place of sincerity.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:00] Okay. So book or tree?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:10:01] I’m a tree person.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:03] I’ve known you for a long time.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:10:03] And I’m lucky because I’m married to a tree person. He is such a tree person that we literally live around the corner from where he grew up. And I mean, you do not even cross a street. It’s like 70 steps or something. He was like, maybe after the kids leave. I live in New York City, so we moved downtown. I’m like, just to be clear, we’re not moving more than ten blocks in any direction. I just like, want to like. And he was like, okay, because we’re both tree. How about you? You’re got more of that book. Yeah. You’re a reinvention person. You’ve had many incarnations.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:33] Like if I’m doing the same thing or feeling like I’m the same in the same space or for too long, I get really antsy.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:10:39] Do you feel stagnant or restless or something?

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:44] I think, and it’s interesting, right? Because we both have a lot of creative energy in us. We both love to create new things.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:10:49] Yes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:49] Like, that’s there’s constantly ideas popping. I do love a sense of of ritual and routine. And I do love to feel like I’m rooted in community. But when it comes to sort of like who I am and how I show up in the world and where I’m devoting my energy, I love the energy of reinvention.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:11:04] You are the most willing to break things and start over of almost anybody that I know. You’re always on the kind of bleeding edge of whatever, and you’re very entrepreneurial too.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:14] Yeah, and that’s always been a part of me since I was a kid.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:11:16] You’ve moved to many different kinds of places, not even from city to city, but like city to rural to suburban to mountains.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:25] Now mountains.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:11:26] Yeah, but. And is your wife the same way?

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:29] You know, I think and so I’m curious now with your theory. I think she’s become more so over time. Like, so is your theory that we kind of are who we are and we kind of stay that way, or can it change over time?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:11:42] I think we are who we are, but some people are more like more in one camp. I’m very extreme on one. No, in fact, I remember somebody once said to me, if you didn’t live in New York City, where would you live? And I was like, probably, I live in Kansas City. That’s where I grew up. That’s such a tree answer. But then I think some people are more adaptable, or they sort of could be they can make the they bring their own weather to the picnic. They can find happiness moving or they could stay. And so I think it’s I don’t know that it’s that they’ve changed or learned, but maybe they just always they have the aptitude of finding the good in both.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:13] It’s funny, as you’re describing, that it’s literally a conversation I had with a friend popped into my head where she was saying, If I’m not a completely different person every seven years, I’m failing at life.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:12:24] See, I mean, but the funny thing is about that, though, is then they’ll say, like, and that is a universal policy that everybody should adopt. And if you don’t feel that way too, you’re stagnant, you’re not moving forward, whatever. Instead of saying, like, I’m the kind of person who feels that way. Other people do not feel that way, you know? Or you feel bad about yourself because you’re like, well, I don’t reinvent myself every seven years. But that’s just a very book answer.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:46] Totally. But I think also like as the more I’m thinking about this, as you’re talking about it, I feel like probably our association with Book or Tree is we feel it on such an identity level, a core level, that the notion of thinking that people could feel otherwise feels almost alien to us.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:13:03] And you’re right, because so many things are like that, where they go so deep that you’re kind of like, well, how could you possibly feel a different way? Or choose or embrace the way you are and not feel like you should want to be like this? But, you know, one of the things I always like to do is, is to try to have language around things so that people can see that, oh, of course, it’s like it’s natural that a person might feel this way, and it’s natural that somebody might feel very differently. But this is the kind of thing. When children leave, many things become revealed. Many things come to the surface. Many things that have been ignored or just haven’t come up start to reveal themselves. And that’s why I’m interested as somebody who studies happiness and self-knowledge. It’s like a time of a forced reckoning. And so to me, that’s interesting.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:52] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. So okay, so this so here’s where this is taking me then. So, you know, we my wife and I and our daughter, when she came I spent 30 years in New York City, grew up just outside of the city and went to school in the city and just never left our entire adult lives up to five years ago. New York City, you know, our daughter is born and raised like she is New York through and through. We had a sense, probably five years before we left, that we were getting done with the city.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:14:27] Um.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:28] And we talked about it and we looked at other places, But we made a decision to stay in the city, and a not insignificant part of that was we have a great kid. We’re really close with her. She was flourishing, doing really well, like in the place where we were. And she loved this place and we didn’t want to disrupt that. And I would imagine a lot of parents make decisions based on the fact that, like, they really want their kids to thrive. Yes, they see their kids thriving in the place that they are, and they’re like, okay, so we can kind of like hold off. We kind of know beneath this we’re done ish, but we got another five years, another seven years, like we can deal with that. But you’re almost like telling yourself the story of, I’m going to convince myself that I’m I’m this other orientation for now because there’s there’s strong enough justification.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:15:14] Well, here’s what I would say to that is if in your mind you’re thinking, well, we’re here for five years because our children are doing really well, but at the end of that time, we’d like I’d like to move, tell your spouse now, because I know a lot of people who have moved and it’s like sometimes one is really intent on moving and the other one is more like your wife. Like, well, I could just as soon stay, but if you really want to go, I can go. But don’t spring it on somebody. Don’t just assume that they’re going to have the same reaction, because I think a lot of people are truly astonished. They’ve never mentioned it before, but they’re like, oh, this is great. Now we can move to the beach and the other person’s like, what are you talking about? This is the kind of thing like it’s in your mind. Start talking about it early, saying, this is what the future I think could look like for us. And let’s start talking about it, because you’re setting yourself up for a huge conflict. If at a time of major change, you bust out with some other huge major change that someone’s not mentally prepared for.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:09] That is such a good point because the the change itself. I mean, a kid leaving the house is wildly disruptive and destabilizing, probably for a lot of people. So then you pile on top of it like one partner coming, saying, and let’s just blow up our whole geographic like point of reference here and go somewhere entirely different.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:16:26] But if that’s your plan, if you’re sort of like like I know because I live in New York City, I know a lot of people who. They lived in New York City, in the city. They moved out to the suburbs when they had a kid, and they all said, I’ll be back. And some are and some aren’t. But for the ones that came back, they kind of had to talk about it. They kind of had to make a plan for it. It’s a huge deal to move, and the ones that have done it successfully are the ones that we’re talking about it well in advance and thinking about it, preparing their children. Some children don’t really care about their hometowns or whatever. Some children are super well, some kids are super sentimental about like seeing their high school friends and all that. And then there are the city kids that or, you know, some cities have kids that, uh, it’s hard to take a kid out of a big city.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:09] Yeah, I mean, I remember so we were like, we were pandemic transplants. We didn’t actually, you know, even though we kind of knew.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:17:15] You had a sense.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:16] That eventually, like, we’d like to be somewhere else. Even when our daughter went off to college, we weren’t thinking about leaving. We weren’t thinking about moving. We were like, ah, we still want a place. This is her home. We want a place for her to come back to. And it’s not just our apartment and us. This is the place that she knows. And maybe there’s something about, like New York City kids in particular. I don’t know, but at least, you know, like our kid, she, you know, she had a love affair with the city itself.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:17:41] Mine, too. I know.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:42] Like, really, really, absolutely loved it and explored it from the tiniest age. I think because in New York,

Gretchen Rubin: [00:17:46] Mine too.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:47] You know, our kids are bopping around on subways and buses and middle school and they’re super independent. So we stuck around and we had no intention of leaving, probably until she had finished college. We’re like, let’s just keep sticking it out so she has this place to come back to. And then the pandemic hit. She got sent back to us in New York. We rode out the early part of the pandemic here, and then we just all got to a point where, like, it’s getting really, we just need to be somewhere else so we can be outside and breathe a little bit. So we went to Colorado thinking we’d be there for 2 or 3 months, tops. We come back to New York like during the holidays. We like settle back.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:18:23] I kind of remember that stage where you were coming and going.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:27] And we just kept extending and extending and extending. I mean, we calculated at one point in the first 18 months we had been in like 18 different Airbnbs and rentals, because we kept pushing more and pushing more, and we were living out of basically our car in a cargo box on top of it with storage facilities. And it hit a point where we’re like, what are we actually doing here? And by staying in this, almost like, you know, liminal space.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:18:55] Yes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:56] Are we damaging us? Are we damaging our relationship? Are we causing harm to our kid because is she just feeling really untethered?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:19:03] Yeah. Like where is home?

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:04] Yeah. And there were times where she literally said to us, she’s like, you know, people are asking me like, where do you live? And she’s like, I don’t know how to answer them.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:19:11] Interesting now, but was it super emotional when you gave up your New York City apartment?

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:16] I don’t think so. Only because we didn’t think we were leaving the city. You know, I think we were like, oh, we’re tapping out for a couple of months and we’ll be back.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:19:24] Mhm.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:25] When we eventually decided out there to like sign a lease for a house.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:19:31] Right, right. Really put down roots.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:33] Then we were all kind of like oh this was a different decision than any of us expected. And it took another couple of years before we sort of said maybe this is actually where we live now.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:19:44] Mhm. Yeah. Well that’s part of remote work is I think there’s, there’s a lot more possibilities and that’s exciting. But it can also mean conflict within a family because people have a different idea of what they want.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:56] And again it was very surreal for us because we did all of this during the pandemic.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:20:01] Sure.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:01] So all the the normal rules. Were just gone.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:20:05] Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s. Yeah. And it just shook everything up.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:20:08] Yeah. And for our daughter also, you know, she ended up actually taking a gap semester and then transferring schools in the middle of it. So everything was just up in the air. So when we think about this whole concept of like the season of empty nesting. Let’s talk about the language itself.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:20:24] Okay.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:24] Because this was the thing that got our conversation started years back when you were really, like, starting to think about this. You’re like, there’s better languaging around this to take me into this.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:20:34] One of the things that’s really surprised me is how much literally vocabulary matters and metaphors matter. Like, it really matters if you practice piano or you play piano, it matters if you network or you engage with your colleagues, it matters these subtle changes. And, uh. And so I was trying to I was searching for a metaphor that I thought was more positive and kind of, but kind of captured the vibe that I wanted to associate with it. So I thought of things like better bandwidth, because a lot of people talk about they just have more bandwidth for everything time, energy and money for like the things that are important to them. I thought of like open seas because I had this like vision in my mind of like a boat, sort of like taking off. And then I landed on open door because. And which I really like, um, as I’ve lived with it for a while because it captures this idea of coming and going, because my daughters are coming and going, but they’re leaving, but they’re also coming back. And I think that’s something that people often say, it’s not empty, they’re coming back. They are coming back. But also my husband Jamie and I, we can also leave. The door is open for us, like we’re more free to come and go. It’s hospitality. It’s the idea of threshold because it is a threshold. You talk about liminality. It’s also kind of like, you know, if you’re a manager and you have an open door policy, it’s like, I’m not micromanaging you. But if you want to stop by and hear what I have to say, my door is always open. I think that’s kind of an ideal of parenthood, which is like, okay, you’re going off and being independent, but I’m here, and if you want to stop by and get some counsel from me, I’m always available to you. It really captured a lot of the different aspects that I sort of wanted to hold on to. As I was going through the stages of the open door transition.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:13] I love that Languaging also because Empty Nest feels like it’s One direction.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:22:17] It does. They leave.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:19] Right?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:22:19] Yeah. They don’t come back. You’re left behind. You’re bereft. And I think that’s part of it is like feeling left behind. And I do think that that’s one of the things that’s really important for parents, which is what do you have going for yourself. Like what’s new, what’s fresh. Because it’s one thing to be the one who leaves, and it’s another thing to be the one who stays. And if you don’t like reinvent what’s going on for you, it is very easy to feel like there’s just a loss or a gap instead of feeling like, oh, now all these new things are coming in.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:49] I want to go deeper into that, though, right? Because I feel like so many parents, a solid chunk of your identity becomes subsumed in the role of parent.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:22:57] Yes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:58] You know, and to the point where if you ask people, you know, like further into parenting, who are you? What they’ll immediately come to mind is who they used to be, but no longer are because they feel like the role of parent has just completely overtaken that deeper sense.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:23:14] Well, it’s so interesting that you bring this up, because one of the things I’m trying to do is come up with like a list of questions where, like, if you answer yes to like one or more of these questions, you might be at risk for like a pretty rocky transition.So be careful.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:25] oh that’s Interesting.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:23:25] And one of the questions that I put on is, can you describe yourself to a stranger without referring to your child, or as your role as parent?

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:35] Huh?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:23:35] Like, how would you do that? Yeah, because I think for some people they’re kind of like, well, I don’t know what I would how I would describe myself to a stranger.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:43] Right. It’s interesting also. Right. Because if you ask that question, somebody joining us for this conversation. Right. And they just planted that question in their head. And if the first thing is like, well, I’m kind of struggling to define myself beyond my role as a parent, my concern is that the immediate response to that is going to be self-judgment and shame.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:24:02] Mhm. Right, right. Like why have I lost track of myself. I’m like yeah. You know that’s a really good point. And I do when I talk to people about it, I think there is a feeling of like, I lost myself and now it’s over and like, how did this happen? Or I should not have allowed it to happen. But on the other hand, like the identity of parent is one that is valorized and very respected and is very important to you for your whole life. So again, there’s that tension where on the one hand, it’s like an incredibly important part of your identity, but then it also can’t be your only. It’s like with happiness, I was realizing I was trying to, like, figure out this tension. And then I realized, oh, it’s like one of these things where both are true, like they’re opposites, but both are true, which happens so much. And one of them is like, I want my daughters to know that they are essential to my happiness. They are the most important things in the world to me, and also they are not essential to my happiness. I have other things in my life that are just as important, right? Both are true and I don’t think they want to be responsible for my happiness.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:11] It’s a big weight to carry.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:25:12] It’s just such a huge weight to carry.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:14] I need to perform in a certain way so that my mom or my dad are happy.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:25:17] Oh, yeah. Somebody said to me, well, the only thing that’s important to me is that my son is happy. And I’m like, that’s too much of a burden for him. You can’t make him responsible for your happiness anyway. But on the other hand, I want them to be like, oh, of course I’m the most important thing in the world to my mother. It both have to be true. And that’s confusing.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:34] Yeah. No, it definitely is. So somebody is at that point and then they ask that question like this question you like, describe yourself, um, without actually referencing that role. And they’re really struggling to do it. What do you say to them?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:25:48] Well, there’s a lot of things that you can do to like get back in touch with an identity. So for example, one thing I think one of the one of the most appealing ones are the most available ones, is to return to an earlier identity. It’s very easy to lose touch with identities. So you think about things like, yeah, what did you do for fun when you were ten years old? What did you do for fun when you were 20? Here’s a tell. Is there something around in your life that you never use? Okay, but you won’t relinquish?

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:20] Oh. That’s interesting.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:26:21] I had two friends who had drum sets.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:24] Huh?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:26:25] One had a drum set in his office, and one had a drum set. Like in this room off his living room. And they’re big, right? Like, that’s a big opportunity cost. And they’re not that appealing. It’s not like a, like a cool guitar

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:39] like a beautiful to look at.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:26:41] Or like a violin on a stand or something like that. It’s like and and to both and you know, you know, my side hustle is trying to bully my friends into clearing their clutter. And so both of them, I really pushed on them. I’m like, what do you play this? Like what’s going on? And neither one of them could let go of it. And to me that’s important. What does this mean to you? Why do you need to hold on to this? Maybe that that to me, is like a very powerful clue that it’s something to return to. Maybe. And maybe it’s not the drumming, but what does the drumming stand for in your mind? What is it that it’s holding for you that you’re not tapping into, but you’re also not letting go of?

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:19] Right.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:27:19] So that’s a clue that you could use. Or like you’ve got tennis rackets, but you never play tennis or you have a lot of art supplies, but you never do art, or you keep reading books about creativity, but you’re never actually like doing it, writing your own project.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:33] That’s a great question. I would imagine also that it could get a little bit muddled because some sometimes the things we hold on to, there’s like a sentimentality to it.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:27:43] Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:43] Rather than an attachment to sort of like a sense of past identity. And you got to be able to tease that out a little bit.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:27:49] An excellent point, right? Because is it like, oh, this is this concert t shirt that’s just like kind of a memento for me or is it somehow what does it signify? You’re right. Right. All these things, it’s like a whole period of self-examination, which I think is why this is such a valuable time. If you really push yourself to do these like gain, gain the wisdom that you can.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:13] Yeah. I wonder if part of what you see going on here is you talk to people about this too. Is that for some people, part of the maybe even subconscious intention behind just sort of dropping into the role of parent is you feel good about it, you feel strong about it. Like you said, there’s a lot to be celebrated. If you look at every bio that I have publicly right now, it starts with with dad. It’s like before any of my professional things, it’s like dad, husband, published author, maker, yada yada. So like, I want I want to be known first and foremost for my role in my family, right? I’m proud of it. But I also wonder if there are some relationships and some family dynamics where we drop into a particular family role, a parenting role, and over time, or maybe even before that, the dynamic within, like the adults in the relationship isn’t great, but you gain the ability to say, like, I’m going to compartmentalize. And like, there is this one thing I’m going to pour myself into. Yes, absolutely. Pour myself into.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:29:08] Yes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:09] And maybe the other person’s pouring themselves into work or something like that at the same time. And it’s enough of a oh, I’m busy doing X, or I’m busy doing Y that you never have to deal with the fact that the fiber of the actual relationship has been frayed for a really long time, and you’re not sure what’s left there. And then when a kid leaves the house.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:29:28] Yes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:29] All of a sudden. Okay. So if that identity, that thing that has allowed us to compartmentalize and not deal with the central thing, we can’t point to it anymore in a meaningful way. If you see sort of like in this moment, also people are starting to say, okay, so what is there for us now?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:29:47] Mhm. Right. No, it’s very common and it’s interesting like the different forms it takes like so one person was like my wife is very difficult and she tends to shut down if she doesn’t get her way, and I just would sort of go along with her to create like a happy atmosphere for my children. But now that they’re gone, like, I really can’t be bothered to deal with it, you know what I mean? So it’s kind of like, I don’t want to do the work that you take if it’s not for the benefit of like, family life. There’s people where they, you know, I talked to a guy who said something like, um, my wife was always really interested in the children. And like, when we would, like, sit around, we would always talk about their friends, their activities. And he said that was fine. I enjoyed that too. But now she’s interested in what I’m doing and she’s asking me questions and I’m really enjoying that. So for him it was positive. It’s like, okay, this is a good thing. But then there are people that are like, now I’m really or there are people who say, oh, you know, now this person just wants to go off and do. What sometimes happens is that one person has taken a part time role or not work to the fullest extent that they could because they’ve been sort of doing like managing the household Old and they want to go full on in work. They want to travel for work, they want to push themselves. They say, oh, now this is my time. And the other person might be saying, oh, I’m getting near retirement. Like, I kind of want to. I want to travel. Like, let’s do some fun things together now that we don’t have the kids at home. So there are all these ways where people can be going in different directions but not realize it until the kids are gone and then it’s all exposed.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:20] Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a theme that we keep coming back to then is this notion of the importance of probably seeing a date coming.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:31:32] you see it coming 18 years in advance. Like this is not a surprise, right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:35] It’s like a year or two or maybe longer. Start to have conversations way earlier than we generally ever do.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:31:42] Yeah, just to say, like, what are you worried about? You know, it’s funny. I don’t know that people always are good judges of even what they’ll think.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:51] Right. At the time when it actually happens. Like, yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:31:54] You know, it was like that with Parenthood where you were sort of like, I have no idea. Like how I’ll deal with this. Like, you honestly don’t know what you’ll be like. I remember being, like, kind of had some trepidation about that. I remember a very wise friend. I said something to her about that, and she said, you will still be you. And as simple as it is, that was so comforting to me because I was like, I’ve seen people change so much in parenthood. It was kind of scary. But I think with this too, it’s. But I think you could start to talk about like, are you envisioning a move? Do you think that we’ll move? Will we downsize? Will we upsize? Do you think we’ll. Do you envision doing something like getting a dog? Because you should let me know. Do you feel like you’re going to be working more? Do you feel like you’re going to change jobs? Like, there’s so many things that yeah, you could at least try to sketch out the major, like the major things you could try to predict. You could at least talk about it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:45] And maybe somebody like, has a thought of like they’re curious about something. Even if they don’t, they’re not sold on it. They’re just like, huh, be interesting to maybe think about what it would be like to do this or change this about my work, or live in a different place, or split our time or something like that.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:32:59] Right, right. Like we could just go and look and see what? Let’s go. Stay let’s let’s go there for a week and see if we like it or whatever.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:33:05] Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:05] Yeah, totally.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:33:06] You could explore it. The idea is to try to do it as a team and to have a feeling of like we’re both in it together and like we want to figure out a way for both of us to thrive, rather than people feeling isolated in their own experience.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:17] Bring it on, you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:17] Hey. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:33:19] No, it’s it’s where people. And if they’re very different, like, my husband and I are both, like, really love to work. So really a challenge for us is just not to work all the time. Because one of the good things about children is they sort of force you to take time off and take vacations and not work on the weekends and stuff. So that’s been our issue. But you can imagine that if one person’s like, oh, now, great, I can work so much more and the other person’s like, no, now we can play.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:43] Yeah. Friction.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:33:44] Right? So that would be the kind of thing that maybe you could see that coming in advance.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:49] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Let’s talk about policies towards our kids. When we think about okay, so maybe they’ve left for let’s not assume that they’re going to college, right. But maybe it’s just time for them to leave the house. Maybe they’ve turned 18. Maybe they’re right. You know, like traveling the world. Maybe they’re starting a business, whatever it may be.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:34:13] Their community college, they live at home, but they’re just out all the time. So they’re living an independent life, even though they’re sort of under your roof. Yeah. There’s the college drop off is just like the most blunt example of there are many times when this could happen.

Jonathan Fields: [00:34:27] Right. So whatever it looks like for you, what are some of the things that we should be thinking about in terms of agreements or understandings that we have with our kids about what this might look like?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:34:40] Well, one of the things that is very tricky about today is tracking. This is a huge issue. Life 360 find my things like that. And I think that for many parents, because they can supervise a little bit more or feel like they’re supervising, they feel like it’s their responsibility to do that and then they’re really up in their kid’s business. Tell me what you think, Jonathan. I’m like, can I just, as a single person in the world say, I declare that once a week is enough to be sufficient of a contact. Now, this is back in the day. This is what people who are parents now probably did as college age kids. Or they were out, which is once a week you were supposed to call and everybody sort of accepted that. Now, today, of course, some people are texting a million times a day. But what is the minimum acceptable amount?

Jonathan Fields: [00:35:38] Right. Which is going to be totally different based on the person. And also totally probably expectations from parents and kids are totally different.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:35:45] No. It’s like the scene from Annie Hall. One mother said to me like, oh my God, I’m estranged from my son. I was like, oh what happened? She goes, you know, I he texted me maybe 2 or 3 times a week. I never hear from him. And then I talked to another mother. I’m like, how’s it going? And she goes, oh, it’s great. You know, I hear from him, you know, a couple times a week it’s all going well. And it’s like, okay, so it is the expectation. So I think you want to talk to your child about like, well what is your expectation? I think a really good thing to say to a child is if I text you, all you have to do is give me like an emoji, like a thumbs up emoji. And that is just like I am answering my phone. I am in a state of life where it is possible for me to read my phone and send you an emoji from time to time, and especially like kids know, like they have a really worried mom. They have a really frantic dad, like they know what you’re like. So talk to them about what would allow you to let go of the reins a little bit more, but still in a way that feels acceptable to both. But what some parents do is they say, I’m really anxious. You need to respect my anxiety and give me the reassurance I need. It’s like, no, that anxiety is on you. There’s a limit where. Okay, but what is the acceptable minimum? That’s why I think we need to sort of figure that out.

Jonathan Fields: [00:36:57] That all lands with me. But talk to me about the tracking thing, though, because I think a lot of parents, it’s inconspicuous. It’s not a big deal when the kids are young, like everyone in the family, like, has the, like the fine or cozy.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:37:09] It’s sweet. It’s just nice.

Jonathan Fields: [00:37:11] They’ll be home in ten minutes. And like, there’s. Nothing nefarious. Or overbearing about it. But then when your kid moves into the next season, that can change.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:37:18] Well, and let me give you an example. So somebody said to me, well, I said to my son, what are you doing this weekend? And he said, not much. But then I looked on line 360, and then I saw he went to a party an hour away from campus. So he lied to me and I’m like, I wouldn’t say that he lied to you. I would say he didn’t feel like describing what he was doing to his mom. Maybe he didn’t think it was much. Maybe it came up last minute. What’s your right to be informed? That’s an appropriate thing for a kid in college to do. And you’ve put him in a situation where you’re saying that he’s deliberately deceiving you. That’s a big possible point of conflict between you and a child, and it’s kind of something that you have created. If you didn’t have that, you wouldn’t have known. You know what the eye doesn’t see, the heart doesn’t grieve over. And, um, you know, there’s a lot of things that our college kids are doing, which we’re probably just much better off not knowing that they’re doing it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:13] As our parents were better off. Like having no way of knowing what we did.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:38:16] 100%. I always tell people I’m like. How did you do this with your parents? And they’re like, oh, my parents do nothing, right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:21] Because we didn’t have all this stuff.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:38:22] Because we didn’t have all this. So everybody’s trying to find like, what is the right balance for my kid? And of course, they’re wildly different. Some kids need a lot of help in supervision. Some kids are are like asked for too much. Like they’re calling all the time. Texting all the time. That’s a that’s hard to manage. Like shows up in all different ways. So there’s no.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:41] I mean, do you feel like it makes sense to just have a sit down conversation with your kid about this.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:38:44] Absolutely. It’s like, what do you think is appropriate? And a lot of kids are very reasonable, you know. And by the way, they know how to trick it, right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:51] Just turn it off.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:38:52] When you turn it off. You leave your phone, you disconnect. I mean, there’s all kinds of things to do, and they’re going to be way better at figuring that out than you are. So I think some people it’s a tool, but some people just don’t manage it in a way that’s good for them or the relationship.

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:08] Yeah. So having that conversation, I think I agree. I think it’s so important. Let’s wind the tape forward a little bit. Kids out of the house for a bit, for whatever reason, whether, you know, and then they return home. Yeah. Maybe they return home for summer break or for winter break. Or maybe it’s just a season of life where they’ve gone like job change, job loss, relationship ends, trauma, whatever it may. And they kind of want to be home for a bit to get their feet under them. And that could be anywhere from a few weeks to months or maybe longer or years, especially now. I mean, I think I think we’ve both seen the stats, you know, the number of kids returning to the home and staying for significant amounts of time is going up significantly. What are the big things that you see that we need to pay attention to in those moments?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:39:52] Well, part of it is, I think, again, it comes back down to a conversation about what are expectations. Like what is the person expected to contribute to the household finances? What are the rules about things like curfew? What are the things about like noise and chores? Because it’s like you’re not coming back and getting to be like a 14 year old where I’m doing the laundry and I’m doing the grocery shopping and to just like, really talk those things through because it can become a big sore spot. And it’s hard if a child isn’t just like has have like even the consideration of like being in the house because now they’re big and they can make a big mess, they can make a big noise like it can be really disruptive. But then you also need to respect the fact that, like, okay, this is a 26 year old, this isn’t a 15 year old. So if they want to stay out till 3 a.m. They can write.

Jonathan Fields: [00:40:40] It’s complicated. Right? I mean, I remember a couple years back sitting down with an adolescent psychologist who told me he’s like, yeah, we used to think adolescents ended 18, 20 years old. It’s like, we now know that biologically, adolescence actually doesn’t end until around 25 for the typical person, which means and he described it as he said, basically, until you’re 25, your brain is all gas and no brake here.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:41:02] But I’ll argue the other point of that, because some parents are. Now I’ve seen parents invoking that research to basically justify them staying as like a supervising parent.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:11] Interesting.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:41:12] Very long. Okay. It used to be like in the 1950s, people who were like 21, 22 years old were married, had a baby, were working.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:21] For your.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:41:21] First home. Yeah. I mean, they were completely independent. And so the idea that, like, as a 22 year old, you’re incapable of, like doing your own laundry. So I worry sometimes when people are like, okay, we’re just extending my parental judgment over you because, like, your cerebral cortex isn’t ready for it. But it is also true. People are impulsive. Both are true, but I do. I do think if you put it in perspective, one thing that I would love to do is when my daughters were really little, their preschool would have this thing like your three year old, and it’s like your three year old should be able to take off their own winter coat. And I was always like, oh wow, I’m doing way too much for my three year old, right? They’re like, you’re not at all supporting their independence. And I’m like, you’re 18 year old. Should be able to like, make their own dentist appointments and go. They should be able to get out of bed without you calling them. They should be able to. What are these things? Because I think sometimes people are like, yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:42:13] Yeah, yeah. Some, some of this also I think probably boils down to to values. Right. Because if you were brought up, you know, in a family culture that said, as soon as you’re 18, you got to be able to cover yourself, right?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:42:25] And you’ve been raised toward that, right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:42:28] You know, and then your kid comes home and all of their peers and all their family cultures are different. They’re like, no, like, this is my home. Like this is. It should be open for me and I should be okay. And I’m just. I’m struggling a bit here, and I need to get back on my feet. And don’t you want to support me in that? And, like, making me pay this and do that? It’s like, that’s got to be something that comes up on a regular basis.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:42:48] It is. And I think that that’s a really good point, that there are the differences, like the expectations of the generations and like what they think is appropriate. Yeah. Again, it just comes back to like having an open communication with it and trying not to impose it and just really come to it from a place of curiosity and like, how do we create an environment where everybody thrives?

Jonathan Fields: [00:43:08] Yeah. So I think zooming out, the thing we keep coming back to on both levels is, is this is unfolding. It’s almost like it’s unfolding on three levels on an individual identity level, on an adult relationship level. Yes. Right. And then on an adult kid level. Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:43:25] No, that’s very true.

Jonathan Fields: [00:43:26] Each one of those deserves its own process of inquiry and conversation.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:43:31] Exactly, exactly. Like one nice thing that seems to happen at this phase is that people reconnect with their siblings.

Jonathan Fields: [00:43:37] Oh, that’s really.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:43:38] Because people are just like busy. They’re doing their own family. But then a lot of times you’ll you’ll reconnect with your siblings. So that’s a really positive thing that can happen. But I think you’re right. There’s the individual like my identity, my purpose, sense of growth. Then there’s marriage if you have it or if you’re single, how are you dealing with that friends, family, community and then your relationship with your child, which changes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:43:58] I love the idea of just thinking about those and also your repeated suggestion, rather than waiting till the day of to the extent that you can start to think about, like how might I feel, what might I want, what might I be curious about before that? You know, ask it of yourself. Ask it of any relevant relationships that you might have.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:44:17] And there’s definitely signs that you’re like, you’re probably going to struggle. So I think it’s.

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:22] What do we look for?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:44:24] If you would say, my child, is my whole world okay? If you would say my child is one of my best friends.

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:29] Um.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:44:30] If you would say, I don’t really have any significant relationships outside my family. Yeah. If you say, I can’t really describe myself to a stranger without referring to I’m a soccer dad, I’m the I’m the father of three girls. I’m, you know, whatever it is, those are signs that maybe you want to start thinking about it. Like setting yourself up. I mean, even something as simple as, like, one night a week. I’m just going to do something for fun myself. I’m going to take a class. I’m going to start a book club. I’m going to get together with my college friends who live in town. Like where you just say, it is possible for me to carve out part of my life, which is just I want to sing in the church choir, and I’m just going to do that. And everybody else has to, like, figure out what to do for dinner, just to sort of start holding space for that to do your transition. It’s interesting. Sometimes people who are divorced say that they think it’s a good practice, that people who split custody, they feel like often have like it’s hard for them because there’s nobody at home with them. But they have started facing these questions much earlier.

Jonathan Fields: [00:45:35] Right? Right, right. That makes sense.

Gretchen Rubin: [00:45:36] Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:45:37] Huh. So interesting. So much to think about. I’ve loved this. Um, feels a good place for us to come full circle as well. I have asked you this question a number of times over the years. We’re going to ask it again, because it’s been a number of years in this container of Good Life Project.. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

Gretchen Rubin: [00:45:55] Except myself, and also expect more for myself.

Jonathan Fields: [00:45:59] Hmm. Thank you. Hey, before you go, make sure to tune in next week for our conversation with the legendary author Michael Pollan about the elusive nature of consciousness and why it’s currently under siege, Michael shares why our awareness is the most precious thing we own, and how we can reclaim our attention in an age of constant distraction. Be sure to follow Good Life Project where you get your podcasts so you don’t miss that upcoming episode. This episode of Good Life Project. was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by, Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music and of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you’re still listening here, do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor, and share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that’s awesome too. But just one person even then, invite them to talk with you about what you’ve both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.