Could This Ancient Mantra Unlock Inexplicable Joy? | Susan Piver

Susan Piver

What if a centuries-old sacred text could awaken profound joy and insight into your daily life? Join bestselling author Susan Piver as she unravels the inexplicable mysteries of the Heart Sutra, a revered Buddhist scripture she has been chanting for over 30 years.

In this captivating dialogue, Susan invites you to let go of intellectualizing and simply allow the powerful words and rhythms to wash over you, much like experiencing a beloved song. Discover how concepts of emptiness and impermanence, rather than causing existential dread, can open you to a spacious awareness brimming with possibility.

You’ll learn the transformative impact of Susan’s chance encounter with a 95-year-old Japanese calligraphy master, which revealed the Heart Sutra’s paradoxical path to “inexplicable joy.” Through synchronistic tales of rainbows, ravens, and more, this illuminating discussion will inspire you to welcome the unknown with radical openness.

Whether you’re a seasoned meditator or new to self-inquiry, prepare to have your perspectives delightfully upended.

You can find Susan at: Website | Instagram | Episode Transcript

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photo credit: Lacey Melguizo

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Episode Transcript:

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:00] So have you ever felt a sort of an inexplicable pull towardssomething sacred or mystical, even if you didn’t fully understand it, or didn’t really consideryourself mystical or spiritual? A kind of a magnetic draw that seemed to come from somewherebeyond the thinking mind. Today’s conversation with my dear friend and sometimes collaboratorSusan Piver is going to open that impulse, that feeling, that curiosity wide open. So for over threedecades, Susan has been exploring and chanting the enigmatic Heart Sutra, one of Buddhism’smost revered and paradoxical texts. And in this rich conversation, she’s going to initiate us intothe sutras profound teachings on emptiness and permanence, and the joy of letting go of conceptsentirely. Susan is a New York Times best selling author, Buddhist teacher, and founder of theOpen Heart Project. Her latest book is inexplicable Joy on the Heart Sutra, and she has thisunique ability to make ancient wisdom feel alive and relevant to our modern lives. In today’sconversation, Susan shares her surprising encounter with a 95-year-old Japanese calligraphymaster that revealed the Heart Sutra’s ultimate message in a way that she never saw coming, andhow synchronistic experiences seem to affirm this insight of finding joy through radical non-clinging. So whether you’re a longtime meditator or curious about a grounded sense of mysticismor spirituality, or just new to these ideas, it’s time to have your perspective upended a bit in atruly delightful and insightful way. Susan’s teachings point towards just living with an open,awake presence that doesn’t resist life’s ceaseless change, and we could all use more of that now.So excited to share this conversation with you. I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:57] Susan Piver. It is always great to be hanging out with you. Dearfriend, frequent collaborator and thought partner, field partner, person who I turn to for spirituallyoriented yet practically grounded questions about life, about relationships, about work, abouteverything.

 

Susan Piver: [00:02:16] Jonathan, you’re in trouble now, boy.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:18] I know setting expectations really high right there.

 

Susan Piver: [00:02:21] But I’m so happy to see you. I’m always happy to talk with you.Always. Always.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:25] Me as well. We’re going to spend some time diving into this thingthat roughly translates as the Heart Sutra today. And this is something that, from what you’veshared, you have been exploring. You have been chanting for something like 30 years now. WhatI want to drop into eventually is what exactly is this thing, and why should we care in the contextof our daily lives? But I also want to know when you say yes to actually exploring something, tochanting it, to deepening into it for three decades, what was the inciting incident that was sodifferent, so unusual, so impactful for you that led you to say, oh, this is something I need to diveinto and not stop?

 

Susan Piver: [00:03:12] For me, the spiritual journey and how one determines next steps, how Idetermine next steps always seems to be not a result of a decision that I make. Oh, this soundssmart or this sounds good. Someone told me I should do it, but to see what drops into my worldand to start responding to it, that’s what seems to be the most trustworthy way of makingdecisions on the spiritual journey, at least for myself. And this is how I connected with the HeartSutra I 35 years ago, through great circumstance, I found someone who was willing to teach mehow to meditate, who was really overqualified to teach me how to meditate. A long timepractitioner, a deep practitioner for some reason, said, yeah, come over to my house, I’ll teachyou how to meditate. And this was again 35 or more years ago. So it was still kind of like, am Ijoining a cult or what’s going on here? Who is this dude? But I went to his house. He had abeautiful shrine. I’d never seen a Buddhist shrine before. And we talked a little bit aboutmeditation and what it is and my motivation and so on.

 

Susan Piver: [00:04:14] And then we sat down in front of the shrine and he said, well, before wesit, let’s just say this together. And he handed me a piece of paper with some words on both sides.He said, you won’t be able to pronounce some of them. That’s okay. Just skip the words you can’tpronounce. Let’s say this and then I’ll teach you how to meditate. And it was the Heart Sutra. So Ireceived the Heart Sutra before I ever even learned how to meditate. And while I was doing it, Iwas like, why am I saying this? Who’s Avalokiteshvara? Where’s Rajagriha? Just these things I’dnever heard of. Fast forward 30 plus years. It is the center of my practice, I would say. It is anever deepening relationship with an inexplicable text, and it was the seed syllable for my wholejourney. And I didn’t know that, of course, at the time. But again, spiritual meaning seems to beviewable only in retrospect. You don’t see it when it’s happening. And when I look back, I seethat this was really happening from Jump Street. From the moment I began to practice, this wasmy companion.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:22] Hmm. What was it about that first experience with it that made itso?

 

Susan Piver: [00:05:27] Nothing. I did not feel like any sense of connection to it. I didn’tunderstand it. I guess what made me stay with it was I trusted the person that taught me tomeditate, and then he invited me and other people. Sure, maybe not right away, but a year or twolater to go on a weekend retreat with him and maybe just five other people to study this HeartSutra. This version that we chant together, which was a page and a half. And that’s when it reallystarted to become deeply meaningful, not even to chant it a lot or to talk about what this wordmeans or that word means, but to feel it take root in my practice and in my mind. I just noticedthat that was happening. And again, what you notice is happening on the spiritual path is almostalways more trustworthy than what you decide should be happening.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:26] Good lesson for life more broadly too. Okay, so let me ask the bigunanswerable question then. What is the Heart Sutra? Yeah.

 

Susan Piver: [00:06:36] It’s big and it’s unanswerable. Just for a little historic context, the HeartSutra, or Prajnaparamita Sutra in Sanskrit is Revered text throughout the Buddhist world. It iscentral to the Zen tradition. It’s very important in the Tibetan or Vajrayana traditions that I’vebeen trained in. If we were to turn up the volume on everybody who was chanting the HeartSutra right now, it would be deafening. It’s a very revered, I would say, is an accurate word. Andprajna means wisdom and paramita means transcendent. So it is the Transcendent Wisdom Sutra.So that’s point one. The full text of the Heart Sutra is something like 100,000 lines long. There’sanother version, politely edited down to 8000 lines, and this version that I’ve written about andthat I have chanted every day, is not 8000 lines long, it’s 43 lines long. And it is also notable thatthe entire Heart Sutra could be 100,000. It could be 8000, could be 43, could be zero lines longand one syllable. And that syllable is ah. If you think about as I have. Why? Why is that the onesyllable? Ah, there’s a sort of letting go, a dissolving out, a repositioning of your feeling of whereyou are from inside yourself to outside yourself.

 

Susan Piver: [00:08:17] Your attention flows out on the odds. Perhaps one reason why breath isso emphasized in meditation practices all over the world. So that’s the brief idea of what it is. I’llalso say that Prajnaparamita is also the name of a female deity. Her name is Prajnaparamita andshe is the deity of wisdom. Wisdom in the Buddhist tradition is associated with the feminineprinciple. And I’ll just say this briefly and then take a beat. Wisdom is thought to be with space.Empty space. Sometimes Buddhist people will say, talk about emptiness. And they’re talkingabout wisdom. But the emptiness isn’t void. It’s rather the space of all possibility. Anything hasarisen. So it’s the space of complete possibility. So it’s just as accurate to call it fullness. And itexplains, perhaps a little bit why it’s associated with the feminine principle. It’s womb like. It cangive birth to anything but itself. It itself is empty of a separate nature. There’s a lot of Buddhisttalk right there. I’ll just tell you that.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:34] I know, and we’re going to dive a lot more into it, because in acouple of minutes, I’m going to ask you to actually share that 43 line version with us, and thenwe’ll dip into it a little bit more and also explore why. Maybe it’s not the greatest idea to try anddeconstruct it at the same time. I want to actually ask about the word sutra. This is a word that Iheard for the first time many years ago. Roughly translated, actually. What is a sutra?

 

Susan Piver: [00:10:00] I’ll have to look up what the actual word means, but it refers to theteachings given by the Buddha during his lifetime. There’s the Heart Sutra, the Diamond Sutra,the Lotus Sutra. There’s many sutras that are about teachings. There are also texts that are calledtantras, which don’t have anything to do with sex. Tantra means thread. And these are teachingssaid to have been given by the Buddha after his lifetime. I cannot explain that the sutras usuallyrefer to the exoteric teachings and the tantras to the esoteric or mystical teachings. So whenyou’re talking about sutra, you’re talking about something the Buddha actually said.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:42] When I back in, you know, in many past lives now, when I was inthe world of yoga and I learned Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras.

 

Susan Piver: [00:10:51] Different, different. Aha! Not foreign, not disconnected, but predatesBuddhism.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:58] Okay. So we have this thing called the Heart Sutra. 100,000 lines,8000 lines, 43 lines, one syllable. You’ve been doing it for three and a half decades. I’m going togo back to the question why?

 

Susan Piver: [00:11:14] Yeah. That is the question. And it is not answerable in advance. It’s onlyanswerable as you do it. For example, analogy is you are a writer among many things. And youmay think, well, this is what I’m going to sit down to write. But then when you start writing,that’s when you actually discover what to write about. And these texts, these chants are the same.You can study them all you want, but you’re not going to have any idea what they are until youstart doing them, and then they start to speak to you, not in a woo woo way, but you develop arelationship with them. And it’s similar to the magic on good days of writing when you discoverin the process. So why chant? I don’t know, but you’ll discover it in the process. The chant thatyou choose to do. Should anyone choose to do any chant, which nobody has to do, will open up adialogue between you and a pre-existing wisdom that you have no idea what it’s saying. At leastI have no idea. And I’ll just tell you that I don’t necessarily understand this, even though I didwrite a little book about it any more than I understood it the first time I did it, before I had anyidea what any of the words meant. But my relationship to it continues to deepen and spiritualteachings. Again, just to make another broad overgeneralization seemed to occur not betweenyour ears, but in the relational space between you and something. So it’s very important tochoose some things that are magnetizing to you a chant, a shrine object, a retreat, a teaching.Because those things wake up your inner wisdom. It’s not generated from your I don’t know whatthought processes, but from your relationship to what you think about. Does that make sense?

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:06] I think so. So then it’s something that you do because in some wayit becomes magnetizing to you and delivers on the experience of waking up some kind ofwisdom or insight within you, without you even necessarily deconstructing or understandingwhat it is, what the words mean, who wrote them, where they came from, like what is the logicaltranslation of. There’s something about interacting with the language itself, the recitation of it,that for some reason something inside of you is magnetized towards. And when you engage withit, there’s an awakening that happens.

 

Susan Piver: [00:13:45] That sounds totally right.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:46] Okay.

 

Susan Piver: [00:13:46] I had two little pieces to that. One is I’ve been absurdly lucky to haveactual teachers who were great, and they said, you should do this. So I’m like, okay, I trust you.I’m doing it. So when I do it, I deepen my connection to the lineage that I practice in. That meansa lot to me. It’s not just floating out in space. It’s deepening my relationship and honoring arelationship. You’re right that when you try to deconstruct it, it falls away. It doesn’t get closer toyou. The best analogy, I think, is like listening to a piece of music. I’m sure you’ve had theexperience of you hear something on the radio or someone somewhere when you used to listen tothe radio and you’re like, I don’t like that or whatever. And then you hear it again and you’re like,hmm. And then you hear it a third time, and then you want to hear it again. It somehow soundsdifferent each time you listen to it. And then when you become familiar with it, it takes place. Ittakes a place in your heart, in your ear, heart, or wherever music lives and your relationship to it.You can listen to a piece of music you love a lot and you still love it. And you may hearsomething different. You may not, but it evokes something important.

 

Susan Piver: [00:15:02] And the Heart Sutra, for example, can be understood in the same waymusic can be felt or heard. First way to understand the Heart Sutra is the words, but the meaningalso comes through in the sound of the words. So just like music, even if you don’t. Even if youif you listen to lyrics in a different language, you don’t know what they mean. But they sound,they have a sound. And the third way the meaning comes through is in in the environment inwhich it is all happening. So I told this story in the book. I was taking a walk in myneighborhood here, and I had my headphones on, and I had a Spotify playlist that just shuffledsongs I like. And at one point, Chet Baker came on singing My Funny Valentine. It was just somournful and reedy and beautiful. And I’m walking on this bike path. I’m like, oh, the world is sopretty. And then the next song that came on was Jump Around by House of pain. Jump, jump.You know, it was like from the word to your mom era and the world really looked different. Sothat’s a sense of words. Sound of words. Environment and the Heart Sutra, or whatever onemight chant arises in those three forms as well.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:20] That lands really powerfully with me. I mean, I think back to someof the music where if I can hear the first three notes, I know what it is. It transports me. It lets metime travel. And it gives me an immediate feeling that I love. Like just me. Or maybe it’s a a sadfeeling, but maybe it’s a sad feeling that also is meaningful to me. Or just a joyful, blissed outfeeling. And at the same time, often that maybe like a soundtrack of my youth. And back then Inever knew all the words. Now I still don’t know all the words, but it still gives me the feeling.I’m still going to pretend I know all the words and garble along with it, you know? And even if Iknew the words, it’s very likely I would have no idea what they actually meant or meant to theperson who wrote them or the people who wrote them. And then that third point, if I listen tothat, if I go to a concert. So I love Bruce Springsteen, I could just listen and listen and listen. AndI put on my headphones and walk around and I’m smiling, listening. Profoundly differentexperience than being. And I don’t know, it’s called something different now, like Meadowlandsin New Jersey. Like hearing Bruce, you know, in the E Street Band play for four hours, youknow, with 60,000 people all around you. And still, I don’t know the words to a lot of the songs,but they move me so deeply. And then to actually experience them in communion with otherpeople. It’s magical, like your entire life. There’s the Buddhist thread and there’s the music threadalso, and which I have to imagine aren’t all that different in a lot of ways.

 

Susan Piver: [00:17:56] To me, they aren’t. And I love that analogy. And, Bruce, if you’relistening, call me.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:02] Me too. Go on the podcast.

 

Susan Piver: [00:18:04] Okay. Call Jonathan first. Thanks for listening. You Changed my Life isparticularly dancing in the dark. Hit me in a moment in time, long ago, that caused me to take mywhole life in a new direction. Another story. But that analogy of the song is the same. The wordsare the same, whatever they might be. The chord progressions are the same. Name. Bruce is thesame. Thank goodness. But it’s. I think songs are living. They’re living energies. You can’t. Firstof all, you can’t find them. They’re not the ones and zeros. And you’re living. And so it’s arelationship. And it continues to deepen or become distant. Or now you like each other, now youdon’t. But that’s a great analogy. And music is not that different. In fact, for me, and not just forme, I’m sure in many ways music communicates spiritual truths in a deeper way than any wordsof any book, because it’s so immediate and so alive. And when you listen, you’re present. You’represent. You can’t listen to some to what you the song that you when you listen to it yesterday,you can’t listen to it yesterday. You can only listen to it right now. So it pulls you into the presentmoment. And many people I parenthetically will say I’m not judging but don’t know how tolisten. You don’t know how to track this instrument or feel that crescendo or its ambient ratherthan something that you actually tune into and track. But when you do tune into and track, that’snot different than meditating. I’m convinced.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:40] No, I like that analogy. So you could look at a sutra and the HeartSutra in particular, almost in that same similar context as like this is like a piece of music. It hasall those similar qualities. You could literally look at the lyric sheet, read through it, you couldchant it or hear it chanted or be in a room where many people are chanting together. And even ifyou you read it and you look at the words and you’re like, I don’t quite get it, there’s atransmission happening. There’s a transmission of energy, of feeling, of sensory experience thatin some way lands in your heart and your mind and affects you.

 

Susan Piver: [00:20:18] It’s so beautifully said. And the Transmission is exactly the right word.You’re not explaining it. A transmission is different than an explanation. It bypasses something,bypasses certain mental processes, I guess. And it strikes you somewhere more visceral. Andthat’s why we love Bruce, and that’s why we love music. And even if you hear a song you love ina different language, at a different tempo, it was maybe some slight with different instruments.You still know what it is immediately. There’s something beyond the words, beyond the chordprogression, even beyond the tempo that is the song. I don’t know what it is, but it’srecognizable.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:01] And at the same time, oftentimes you never quite know what it is.

 

Susan Piver: [00:21:04] Well, that’s a really good point.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:06] And this is what you write in the book relating to the Heart Sutra isa little bit like falling in Love. Shortly after that, you finish with you’ll never really know eachother.

 

Susan Piver: [00:21:16] I mean, you don’t, but but at the same time. And I know we’ve bothbeen married for a long time. The intimacy deepens, as does the love and the distance. It’s a verystrange matrix. You will never really know each other, but the intimacy deepens anyway. And Ithink that’s weird and cool.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:37] Yeah, I think it’s really cool. Also. And as you’re describing that,I’m also thinking the intimacy continues to deepen. And if you’re in a relationship where each ofyou individually continue to explore and grow because there’s no sense you have two people,maybe three people, whatever your relationship is about. And if you’re all evolving in your ownunique way, that means you’re you’re forever changing. If you allow yourself the freedom togrow in perpetuity, by definition, you will never be fully knowable because who you wereyesterday is not who you will be like next week, and the month after and the year after.

 

Susan Piver: [00:22:15] Yeah, you don’t even know yourself. So it’s a mystery, Jonathan.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:20] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. I feel likeit’s time for us to actually hear the text. Not the 100,000 line version of it. Would you be so kindas to actually share the 43 line version of the Heart Sutra?

 

Susan Piver: [00:22:39] I would be delighted. And my suggestion for people who are listeningis twofold. One is there’ll be names of people and words you don’t understand. That’s cool. Don’tworry about it. And the other is, though it is tempting, it would be a mistake, I would say to askas you’re listening, what does this mean? It would be more helpful to ask, what does this mean tome? So you want to start off making it personal? And in fact, the first line is thus have I heard.And I’ll just say a little bit about that. That’s the first line of the 43. Thus have I heard so rightaway it’s like, well, who is this I and are they trustworthy? Yeah, that’s what you heard. But whatam I going to hear? So it happens that the I hear is one of the Buddha’s closest students, namedAnanda, who is also his cousin and was renowned for his extraordinary memory. Maybesomeone was mean to him earlier that day and he didn’t quite listen carefully. Or so you want toplace yourself in the eye position right away. That’s always good advice, I think. Thus have Iheard once the Blessed one that’s Buddha was dwelling in Rajagriha at Vulture Peak Mountain,together with a great gathering of the Sangha of Monks and a great gathering of the Sanghabodhisattvas. At that time, the Blessed One entered the samadhi that expresses the Dharma calledprofound illumination, and at the same time noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva Mahasattva,while practicing the profound Prajnaparamita, saw.

 

Susan Piver: [00:24:12] In this way he saw the five skandhas to be empty of nature. Then,through the power of the Buddha, Venerable Shariputra said to noble Avalokiteshvara, thebodhisattva Mahasattva, how should a son or daughter of noble family train who wishes topractice the profound Prajna paramita? Addressed in this way noble Avalokiteshvara, thebodhisattva Mahasattva said to Venerable Shariputra O Shariputra, a son or daughter of noblefamily who wishes to practice the profound Prajna Paramita, should see in this way, seeing thefive Skandhas to be empty of nature. Form is emptiness. Emptiness also is form. Emptiness is noother than form. Form is no other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, perception, formationand consciousness are emptiness, thus shariputra all dharmas are emptiness. There are nocharacteristics. There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no purity. There is nodecrease and no increase. Therefore shariputra in emptiness. There is no form, no feeling, noperception, no formation, no consciousness, no I, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind,no appearance, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no dharmas. No I dhatu up to no mind.Dot two. No dot two of dharmas. No mind consciousness two. No ignorance, no end ofignorance.

 

Susan Piver: [00:25:48] Up to no old age and death. No end of old age in death, no suffering, noorigin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, no attainment, and no non-attainment. Therefore, shariputra. Since the bodhisattva’s have no attainment, they abide bymeans of Prajna paramita. Since there is no obscuration of mind. There is no fear. Theytranscend falsity and attain complete nirvana. All the Buddhas of the three times, by means ofPrajnaparamita, fully awaken to unsurpassable, true, complete enlightenment. Therefore, thegreat mantra of Prajnaparamita, the mantra of great insight, the unsurpassed mantra, theunequaled mantra, the mantra that calms all suffering should be known as truth since there is nodeception. The Prajna paramita mantra said in this way om gate, gate paragate para sambatBodhi svaha. Thus, Shariputra, the Bodhisattva Mahasattva should train in the profound Prajnaparamita. Then the Blessed One arose from that samadhi and praised noble Avalokiteshvara, theBodhisattva Mahasattva, saying, good, good, Oh, son of noble family. Thus it is. O son of noblefamily. Thus it is one should practice the profound Prajnaparamita. Just as you have taught. Andall the tatagata will rejoice. When the Blessed One had said this venerable Shariputra and nobleAvalokiteshvara, the Bodhisattva Mahasattva, that whole assembly and the world with its gods,humans, Asuras and Gandharvas rejoiced and praised the words of the Blessed One.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:39] So two things are happening right now. One, I’m just really tryingto to sit with it. And as your invitation in the book was, you know, let it wash over you. And thenthe other, like my scientist mind, is like, what is this? What is that? What is this? Who is this?How is that? I want to know. Like I want to. I want to deconstruct a bit. And I don’t know if that’sgoing to help me at all.

 

Susan Piver: [00:28:07] Oh it will. Both are signs of intelligence. I want to experience it, and Iwant to penetrate it.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:13] Right.

 

Susan Piver: [00:28:14] There’s very, very smart.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:15] So let me ask a couple of questions. Sure. It’s like the first part ofthis. The first third or so. It feels like it’s the setup. It’s act one. It’s the hearsay part, like, oh, Ilike I heard a really smart dude talking about this thing, and I’m very trustworthy because I’mclose to him and I have a great memory. So this is sort of like setting up what the, quote centraltransmission is. Is that right ish?

 

Susan Piver: [00:28:41] I think so.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:42] Okay. And then we get into what feels to me like for me. And againyou asked like like don’t think, what does this mean? But what does this mean to me or whatdoes this feel to me? The part where I found myself really leaning in was when the languagestarted talking about emptiness, which you referenced a little bit earlier in our conversation.Emptiness. And then also just the notion of impermanence of everything, which is a truth thatI’ve like constantly tried to go back and explore. And it’s hard. It’s beautiful. There’s great assetsand suffering and responsibility that goes along with it and freedom. And you want to kick andscream against a whole bunch of it. Walk me through that central part a little bit more.

 

Susan Piver: [00:29:27] Yeah. And I share all of your feelings, by the way, in contemplation ofimpermanence. You’re right. The first part is like, hey, here’s the Buddha. Then he disappears. Hegoes into samadhi, which means a perfect absorption. And then the rest of it is spoken by one ofhis students, Avalokiteshvara, who is the Bodhisattva of compassion.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:48] And what is Bodhisattva mean?

 

Susan Piver: [00:29:50] Awakened being. So the sutra starts out by saying the Blessed One wasthere. That’s the Blessed One means Buddha. Together with a great gathering of the Sangha ofMonks, monastics and a great gathering of the Sangha of Bodhisattva’s. So some people aremonastic in their spiritual pursuits. That’s totally reasonable and good. Other people areexpressing their spiritual pursuits through being of benefit and helping others. Not that monasticsaren’t helping others, but the primary focus is how can I serve? And that’s bodhisattva’s do. Theylead with the question and devote themselves to how can I serve? So we had the monastics andwe had the bodhisattva’s. We had the foundational practitioners and the heart openingpractitioners. And Avalokiteshvara is like the central of the bodhisattva world, the center of thebodhisattva world, the Mahasattva, the ultimate bodhisattva. A student named Shariputra, who’sknown for intellect, asks him, what the hell? What is this that’s going on here? And he says, well,whatever you think it is, it’s not that. Oh, and thinking it’s not. That is also not that. Whateveryou think it is, it isn’t. And when you think. Oh, it isn’t. That’s what it is. You just got kickedback to Palookaville because there is no place to land in empty space. It is groundless accordingto the law. So when you are in ultimate wisdom, which is synonymous with this vast space,there’s no place to stand. And the sutra tells you over and over again, no, don’t try to stand there.Don’t try to stand there. And it breaks it down. Whatever you think. Including all the dharmasyou’ve learned. No dharmas. Towards the end of the nose. There’s 37 nose, I think he says. Nosuffering, no origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path for anyone who’s studied anyof Buddhism will immediately know those are the Four noble Truths, right?

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:51] That I’m listening to that and I’m like, wait, what?

 

Susan Piver: [00:31:54] So at this point, by the way, according to the law, some of the monasticshad heart attacks and died because they were like, what?

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:02] Shouldn’t be laughing at that but.

 

Susan Piver: [00:32:04] I know, I know, I hope it’s not true, but it just sounds so funny. And mymy favorite book on the Heart Sutra is called The Heart Sutra by a great, wonderful writer namedKarl Brunnholzl. And that’s why he called it that, because it shatters concept. And that’semptiness without concept, beyond concept. So that’s one reason why we cannot apply conceptsto understanding it. It’s very frustrating. It’s more like letting go, letting go, letting go. And thenaccording to all the great teachers, you realize emptiness. You don’t understand it, you realize it.And it says towards the end of the Heart Sutra, you’re not going to get anywhere since thebodhisattva’s have no attainment and no non-attainment. Entertainment. Thanks a lot. They abideby means of Prajnaparamita, transcendent wisdom or emptiness. So it’s not like they. I’ve oftenwondered why that word was translated as abide, but it means they are one with the truth ofemptiness. And P.S. there’s a mantra that expresses this, and it says the unsurpassed mantra, thegreat mantra, the unequaled mantra. And then the part that always gets me going, the mantra thatcalms all suffering. So if you’re ever like, I wonder if there’s a mantra that calms all suffering.This one says, yeah, it’s right here.

 

Susan Piver: [00:33:31] I just break it down very briefly. Om, which is the seed syllable ofcompassion. So it’s a seed syllable. It’s a mantra. You are very familiar with om, as I’m sure manypeople listening, but in this context it plants the seed of compassion because it’s avalokitesvara’sseed syllable. The Bodhisattva of compassion. Gate. Gone beyond that, I’m just going to say itagain in case you missed it. Gone beyond paragate. I really went beyond Paragate. I shattered alllimitations. I went so far beyond that I arrived Bodi, which means awake in the root of the wordBodhisattva and Buddha, which means awake svaha, which is often at the end of mantras. And itmeans so be it or mic drop. I like to say so. Compassion beyond, beyond. Super beyond. Reallynot kidding. Beyond. Awake. Mic drop. That’s it. I can’t explain it. That is the mantra that calmsall suffering. It does no good because I’ve tried this to say. Is that true? Let me try it. I don’t knowwhy. How could that be it? How could that be the one? But when I am suffering, I say it. Andthen I check and I learn things.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:34:51] Does it help?

 

Susan Piver: [00:34:52] Yes and no. I mean, what I want is to stop suffering and on, you know,really good hoity toity days. I want to learn something from my suffering. But I think that theway it actually helps is it makes of my suffering a kind of offering. And there are certainsituations, I’m sure many of everybody understands this. You can’t fix it. It could be anythingfrom an intractable migraine to the reprehensible political situation in our country. I’m suffering.I can’t fix it. I don’t know any way out. Can I find my rage or care or love or longing, whatever itmight feel like, and offer it so that I don’t know how it can help others, but let me just offer mysuffering so that it could benefit others, not because they’ll learn from it. I don’t know how, but itadds a little ingredient of generosity into suffering, which is usually very contracted. Anyway,that’s just something to think about. When I chant the mantra, I feel like I’m letting go ofsomething. That’s a simpler way of saying it.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:35:59] I mean, it feels similar in an interesting way to I think I’m trying toremember if this is coming back to me with the right attribution. I think it was when in ViktorFrankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning, but quoting Nietzsche about how suffering becomes adifferent experience when you can identify a why for the suffering, when you can sort of like,say, there’s there’s a certain purpose to this suffering that like it will in some way help. Maybe noteven me.

 

Susan Piver: [00:36:31] Exactly. It’s a building block of some sort. And I cannot see theblueprint for this building. But something in me says this is part of it. On good days, I think Iwould also say with this mantra and with the Heart Sutra in general. And you stop me if thissounds I don’t know what. Confusing or unhelpful, but so much of spiritual practice in the Westis about fixing yourself and withdrawing into yourself. Sometimes you gotta because it’s just toostressful out there or worse than stressful. But I don’t think that’s the original intention with thesespiritual teachings. Not to fix yourself. And it’s certainly not to withdraw. It’s to go in fully toyour life, to the world, to the experience that you have. And the going out is name checks. ahh. Going out. Ah, when you say something like this that you don’t understand or I don’t, there’ssome sense that I’m reaching into a liminal space between me and wisdom that is beyond myconventional mind, which is the real one. It’s important for spiritual practitioners, in my opinion.I mean, if you want to meditate to have less stress and get a better night’s sleep, knock yourselfout. It will help. That’s great. Dig. But that’s not why the practice was. I don’t know what word iseven suggested, invented or taught. It wasn’t like, hey, you’ll become a better leader if you dothis. It was. You will wake up from suffering. You will see what you cannot see with yourconventional mind. If you want meditation as a spiritual practice, it’s important to build someway of connecting with the space between and. That sounds weird and it’s not. When you say amantra, you’re connecting with a liminal space. I don’t know what it means. I’m saying it. I’mletting it go. When you say a chant that you don’t really understand, you’re sort of knocking on adoor that you’re not quite sure what’s on the other side. And it doesn’t even have to be thatconceptual. If you have a little shrine or an altar with a candle or incense or a picture ofsomething, and then before you practice, if you have a practice, not everybody has to practice byany means. You light the candle or the incense and it’s a gesture into the liminal space. It’s not.I’ll figure this out. Let me think about it. I’m lighting a candle to something, or looking at apicture of something that inspires me to sort of draw me out into a bigger space. And a chant likethis only draws you into a bigger space. And I don’t know what that’s going to look like for you. Idon’t even know exactly what it looks like for me. But that piece, the mystery, is a very importantpart of the spiritual journey or meditation as a spiritual practice. And that’s often left on the tablein meditation instruction that it’s mystical.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:26] I feel like we often we don’t want to actually bring that into theconversation.

 

Susan Piver: [00:39:30] Why do you think that is?

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:39:31] Because it means that we don’t know everything and that we haveto, you know, that there’s a giant domain of the unknown. Domain of the unknown is anoxymoron right there. There’s an undefinable unknown out there in the world that there’s a lot ofour lives is unlocked, unlocked. Downable it is a mystery, is mystical, and that terrifies us. Youknow, we spend most of our waking hours trying to lock down as much of our lives as wepossibly can. And you write about this actually in the book, and you were just speaking to it likethis notion of spiritual practice versus self-improvement paradigm. You know, self-improvementparadigm is largely trying to change what is and lock down the future. We have very specificgoals and outcomes because we think that’s going to make us feel the way we want to feel.Whereas like in my experience, the spiritual paradigm is more what if we accept that actuallynow is what it is? Life is about more about surrender and unfolding. The vast majority of it wedon’t have control over and we will never have control over. And yet we still exist within thisether of wisdom and truth and beauty. And if we can just be as present as we can, maybe we’llexperience more of that without actually having to force change. Yeah. And those two worlds, inmy experience, often are at odds.

 

Susan Piver: [00:40:53] Mine too. And that was beautifully said. And it gets even moreparadoxical when you think, well, if I could only be present. Well, immediately you’re notpresent when you think that. There’s always a slapback on the deep spiritual path. The things youthink, well, if only I wasn’t attached, I would be happier. But then you’re attached to non-attachment. So there’s always a. It’s not that. Just like the Heart Sutra says. Not that, not that, notthat. And it’s even not recognizing that. It’s not that it’s something beyond this or that. And yes, itis frightening to imagine that there is such a thing as beyond this or that, because I’ll neverunderstand it. But I’ll tell you what’s scarier is to pretend that you understand and to stake yourlife on false understandings, which I have done probably 27 times before we had this call today.That’s really scary. You miss your whole life.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:48] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Dippingback into this central theme of emptiness again, I think this is one of these things where we comeat it from a Western mind and really, really, really struggle with it because emptiness has a prettynegative connotation to most of us. Like, I feel empty inside. I don’t feel anything. I want to feelalive. I want to be engaged. Like. And the notion of emptiness, the frame that I think we so oftenbring to the concept is, is negative. Like, this is the thing we want to avoid. And yet the heartsearcher kind of positions it as this is a space of just profound abundance. And I guess then youwould make the argument at the same time, and then it’s not.

 

Susan Piver: [00:42:32] No, this, no, that.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:42:34] This is very perplexing.

 

Susan Piver: [00:42:35] It’s so freaking friggin perplexing. So here’s a moment. This was longago when I sort of got some sense of what this might mean. Maybe you used to live in New YorkCity. So when I first moved to New York City a million years ago, and I don’t live there anymore,but I could not sleep because it was so noisy and it wasn’t even that noisy. But there was just thatambient hum all the time that you come to love when you are a New Yorker. But at first you’relike, how can anybody sleep here? So night after night after night I can’t sleep, I can’t sleep. Andthen out of desperation one night, my ear tuned away from the noise and into the silence underthe noise, and I realized that I could always do that. You can do it right now. If you’re listening.You can do it too. There’s sound coming out of silence. Now there’s a silence. And then I saywords and there’s a sound. Bed of silence is always there. It’s never not there. And if you want toplay, you can tune your ear to it whenever you feel so inspired. And that’s something aboutemptiness. And I agree that it has a negative connotation, and I wish someone had picked adifferent word, whoever translated it because it could, as mentioned, just as easily be expressedas fullness because it’s a fullness of silence. Anything can come out of it and nothing is possiblewithout it. Then it would be dead. But because there’s silence, there can be sound. And there’ssomething about that dichotomy. Because there is light, there can be dark. There was no light,there would be no dark. That bed from which light and dark silence, and I mean sound arises, Ithink is a fruitful direction to explore.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:20] Totally great. The way it lands with me is it’s, you know, that’s thespace of unlimited possibility. And yet the first movie we want to make, we’re in that space, is todetermine which possibility we want to make manifest so that we’re diminishing the experienceof the unknown.

 

Susan Piver: [00:44:39] Yeah. And go ahead. Determine what is possible. Yeah, that’s what wedo all day. But don’t forget about this other space of silence and emptiness. It’s still there, too.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:50] So you had an interesting experience not too long ago. Afterstudying and chanting this Heart Sutra for so many years, you decided to lead a retreat where youwould teach it in Colorado. You show up at the retreat and there’s a momentary experience thatyou didn’t see coming. That sounds like has also and that made a slight tweak to the mantra partof the Heart Sutra. That was really interesting.

 

Susan Piver: [00:45:23] Yeah. As you say, I went to this retreat center in the foothills of theColorado Rockies to teach a retreat on the Heart Sutra. What a privilege for me. And when I gotthere, I noticed there was another program wrapping up on calligraphy, and it was taught by Ihope I’m not butchering the name Kazuaki Tanahashi sensei, a great calligrapher, 95 years oldJapanese who also happened to have written a brilliant book on the Heart Sutra A CompleteGuide to the Heart Sutra by Tanahashi sensei. And I’m like, I am such a poser. I have got full onimposter syndrome, and the reason I have that is because. Freaking true. Here’s this guy andhere’s me. And I’m like, yeah, let me explain the Heart Sutra. And in the meantime, here’s thisactual sage walking around. And I think I said this in the book, I wanted every time he walked byme, like on the way to the dining hall or whatever, I’d wait till he passed and then I would bow,like into the space behind him because I didn’t want to, I don’t know, insert myself who knowswhat I was thinking. And then I’m like, wow, he’s here and I’m about to do this. What the hell?And then the morning my program was going to start, his was ending, and I walked into theresidential hall and he was sitting in the vestibule with his suitcase, I guess, waiting for someoneto pick him up.

 

Susan Piver: [00:46:44] Just him. And I just said hey. And just rushed by. And then I’m like,wait, Susan, go back. Just go back. This is your chance to ask him a question. So I asked him if Icould ask him a question and he said yes. I said, if you could tell people one thing about theHeart Sutra, what would it be? What is the most important thing to say? And without hesitatinghe said, joy. That is the most important thing. This the mantra om gate, gate paragate. Para gatesvaha. Svaha. Often translated as so be it. He said, I translate it as joy. Svaha is joy. So theultimate letting go, the so be it is what joy feels like. So I was grateful. I said, oh, thank you andsort of just slunk away, I guess. And that was the experience of the retreat. It was the joy ofletting go of concept with other people who are also doing their best. It’s hard to do it byyourself.

 

Susan Piver: [00:47:51] And then miraculous signs and symbols happened. I mean, I’m notBSing you. Every day there was a different rainbow. Crazy butterflies would just land on thethreshold of the meditation room like I’d never seen anything like this. There’s another chant, notthe Heart Sutra that we do, that says the raven headed one, which is one of the deities in TibetanBuddhism, is depicted as having a raven head for a head, and Raven started calling JonathanFields. You could hear ravens cawing. I’m like, okay, hold, hold up, hold up, hold up. I don’tknow what’s going on here, but it must have something to do with joy. There’s a synchronizationof inner experience and outer occurrences, a letting go and then letting go of letting go. Andsomehow the result is this joy. That’s also where we started was how did I get started with this?Or how did I find the Heart Sutra? It’s always a falling backwards, and it’s always a noticing whatis happening, rather than trying to conjure what we want to happen. Something is happening.And when you tune to that, rather than form feeling, perception, formation and so on, greatforces come to your aid in the form of ravens and butterflies.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:49:07] I just love that like slight shift in the way he defines svaha.

 

Susan Piver: [00:49:12] Me too.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:49:13] If the last thing is joy and that means like the letting go and thenthe letting go of the letting go, and then that I’m going to translate that to in my mind, like, this isjoy. Then it’s an invitation to just sort of like, move through the day and. Exhale. Let go. Like,what can I let go of even for a heartbeat? For a moment. And on the other side of that, or maybein coincidence with that, maybe I’ll invite more joy.

 

Susan Piver: [00:49:44] I’m with you.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:49:45] I’m guessing that maybe part of the reason that you ended up titlingthe book Inexplicable Joy.

 

Susan Piver: [00:49:50] That is a very, very good guess. It’s inexplicable and it’s joy. And then Iread this very short, just a couple lines as this manuscript was being written. I’m like, what is thisjoy thing? I read this from a different great teacher named Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche from hisbook sadness, Love and Openness, which is a great title. Deep sadness because nothing lasts,fervent love because all beings are my beloved family. Lucid Said openness because thisordinary mind is full awakening. Sheer joy because all of this is true. I just burst into tears whenI read that. All of this. Nothing lasts. Everything is alive. I don’t know. Now I do. Now I don’t.I’m part of a fabric of something. Living that all of this is true is sheer joy. That’s my aspiration,anyway.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:50:49] And that feels like a great place for us to come full circle as well.I’ve asked you this question in the past, and I’m going to ask you again in this container of GoodLife Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

 

Susan Piver: [00:51:03] A profound and lasting connection to a source of wisdom that you trust.That’s a good life.

 

Jonathan Fields: [00:51:11] Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safebet, you’ll also love the conversation we had with Tara Brach about making peace with the truthof our lives. You’ll find a link to Tara’s episode in the show notes. This episode of Good LifeProject was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing helpby, Alejandro Ramirez, and Troy Young. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music, and ofcourse, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in yourfavorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuableand inspiring, chances are you did because you’re still listening here. Do me a personal favor. Aseven second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that’sawesome too. But just one person even then, invite them to talk with you about what you’ve bothdiscovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that’s how we all comealive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.

 

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