Have you ever felt conflicted within yourself, torn between different desires or impulses? Or perhaps you’ve struggled with habits or reactions that seem beyond your control? In this illuminating conversation, we explore Internal Family Systems (IFS) β a powerful therapeutic modality that empowers you to heal by relating to your innermost “parts” with compassion and curiosity.
Our guest, Shankari, is a highly regarded IFS Practitioner who spent 15 transformative years immersed in the healing landscapes of California’s Esalen Institute. Drawing from her rich background integrating somatic practices, shamanism, Gestalt therapy, and more, Shankari offers a rare glimpse into the depths of IFS and its profound implications.
You’ll discover how to befriend even your most challenging inner voices β anger, fear, shame β by understanding their positive intentions. Shankari shares practical techniques to cultivate self-leadership, navigate difficult emotions with grace, and unburden deep core beliefs forged in childhood traumas.
But IFS is more than a self-help tool β it’s a spiritual practice rooted in neuroscience. Shankari reveals how consciously developing internal relationships can rewrite neural pathways, allowing your truest essence to emerge. Her insights offer a roadmap for personal freedom, self-acceptance, and reclaiming your innate wholeness.
Whether you’re seeking emotional healing, greater self-awareness, or a renewed sense of empowerment, this insightful exploration will illuminate your path. Join us for a powerful journey into the wild terrain of your inner world, guided by one of the most experienced and passionate IFS guides.
You can find Shankari at: Website | Episode Transcript
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Episode Transcript:
Jonathan Fields: [00:00:00] So have you ever felt like you’ve got these different personalities living in your head, constantly disagreeing and leaving you confused or paralyzed? Even like one part wants to take that leap while another wants to cling to safety. Well, get ready to make peace with yourself, because this fascinating conversation is going to explore an incredibly powerful approach to understanding and reconciling these different parts within us. I’m talking about internal family systems, or IFS for short. Kind of like the hot thing on the block of processing what goes on inside you these days. And my guest today, Shankar, is one of the most experienced and passionate guides to this transformative modality. With over 15 years immersed in the rich healing landscape of California’s legendary Esalen Institute and decades of practice and client work, she has intricately woven together traditions like Gestalt therapy, Somatics, shamanism, and more into her ifs practice. And by relating to our inner voices, be they anger or fear or even our innermost dreams with compassion and curiosity. Ifs reveals were not fragmented beings at odds with ourselves. We’re whole with an essential self that can harmonize our parts, and Shankari shares amazingly practical techniques to stop battling unhelpful habits and befriend our most challenging emotional patterns. But IFS also is more than a self-help. It is a spiritual practice rooted in cutting edge neuroscience about how we can literally rewire neural pathways. So Shankari reveals the almost magical process of unburdening core beliefs often forged in childhood traumas. It’s kind of mind blowing stuff that gave me a visceral, felt sense of reclaiming my wholeness. So whether you struggle with outdated coping mechanisms, self-doubt, or just feeling disconnected from your truest self, this conversation will illuminate a profound path to personal freedom. So get ready to meet the enlightened community within you, guided by one of the world’s foremost experts in IFS. So excited to share this conversation with you! I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
Jonathan Fields: [00:02:05] I think, folks, if they’ve been exposed to it, many of them became familiar with IFS or internal family systems through Dick Schwartz and his work. Sort of like really teasing this out. The notion of parts or parts work, and I want to dive into that with you because I think it’s so powerful. And it’s also I feel like it’s really becoming part of sort of like the zeitgeist these days. I just hear everybody talking about it. But I’m also curious, you know, when you start out more somatically oriented, what’s the journey for you to go from there to really deepening into internal family systems or parts work?
Shankari: [00:02:39] Yeah, yeah. In my 15 years at Esalen, I was there in so many different ways. During that 15 years, it wasn’t just like one static, here’s how I am. You know, I started off as this month long work scholar and then a year long extended studies program, and then and that was all. I was working in the kitchen and I had come there and I had these kitchen issues, and I was working through them by working in a kitchen. And then I worked in the IT department, and then I taught classes and, um, and just, you know, just the fabric of one’s life.
Jonathan Fields: [00:03:11] Um, for those who don’t know, by the way, is this fantastic place in Big Sur, California, right? Literally built into the bluffs overlooking the ocean and and for for, I want to say generations, a few generations now, it’s been this place where sort of like the, the, the leading minds, um, in science, in medicine, in spirituality, in healing modalities kind of all come together. And there’s this magical, almost like stew that gets formed where, like, there’s a cross-pollination that’s that’s really powerful.
Shankari: [00:03:45] Yeah. So basically at Esalen at that time and for many years, not so much now, I think, is that gestalt? So Esalen was a place known as a place without having a flag. There was not one like paradigm or modality that led anything, but Gestalt was used as a framework for communication within the community and the administration. And Gestalt is like IFS, process oriented parts work. So what that means is it’s also very semantically based, just like IFS. For example, as an extended student in the year long program, it’s like I would be in process for my work group for two hours a week. And then I had a special process group for being an extended student. And then, you know, more and more. And so it’s just like really like it’s all about getting in touch with the parts of yourself, hearing their voices, feeling them in your body, moving through them, really communicating like this i-thou relationship. And speaking for myself, instead of saying, you did this and or you, you know what it’s like when this instead of saying that, it’s like, oh, I, I had this experience. And so like centering, it’s just like, oh yeah, what’s happening for me? And even when someone is in when there’s a facilitator and someone’s going through their process work, let’s say they’re in what’s called the hot seat originally with Fritz Perls, then it’s like, oh, what’s it like to sit here and be with myself and be with all of the parts that are arising as I’m watching someone doing their process work with a facilitator, because it’s like, I can’t say anything, I can’t do anything, I can’t interrupt the process.
Shankari: [00:05:26] And it’s just like, I might be having big triggering and activated parts of myself arising. So it’s like, how do I sit with that? And so it’s like many, many, many hours of of doing that and watching people’s journeys and their process just like so amazing. And so, so I came from this gestalt background and I studied it in the had a, you know, certificate program in it, but I never felt really called to offer it to other folks, and I thought that I would. But what I found out later is when it came upon, IFS is it’s like, oh, it was missing this element. That’s for me, so important, which is spirituality. And also IFS has a very shamanic element. And I really delved into shamanism while I was at Esalen, as these amazing shamans would come there and teach. And the power of the natural place, you know, the land of Esalen in Big Sur is so profound that, you know, all of that stirred together where it’s just like, oh, spirituality.
Shankari: [00:06:26] Like, I’ll just share with you. Um, so I was going around to different ashrams and retreat centers, and I was like, where I knew I wanted to live in a learning community. And, and so I looked at this place and I looked at this place, but but I would find dogma. And it’s like, you have to follow this belief and you can’t question something. And it’s like, oh, I’m not into that. And so, so at Esalen, there was that freedom because it’s like no one idea captures this place, so there is no dogma. And so bringing it back around. So lots of shamanism. And so there’s gestalt process oriented parts work. And then there’s IFS, which includes shamanistic practices and working in the non-ordinary realm and recognizing that and the spiritual angle which is this self-energy, this core essence, like to me, it’s like the Tao, you know, Tao is everywhere and within everything. So it’s like the spark of divinity that we all have and that connects us all. And so ifs so it’s like Gestalt was, for me a natural. It was a natural progression to go from that to ifs, where then it’s like, oh yeah, it’s got these elements that are just so important to me. So it really brought together actually that everything that I had learned before Celine and through that amazing period.
Jonathan Fields: [00:07:50] Yeah. I mean, that’s so interesting. In particular, I never thought of IFS as being so integrated. So I’m curious to explore that a bit more with you. It always felt just sort of like fairly linear and practical to me, but maybe that’s just the way that it’s often brought to us, because that kind of goes down easier for a lot of people, you know, especially as like a point of entry to the work. It’s just sort of like the more practical approach to it. But I love what you said also about, you know, so often we’re invited into a system of practices, but in order to gain access to it, we’re also told that we have to buy into a set of beliefs or rules or doctrine or dogma. And we look at the practices, we’re like, oh, that’s kind of cool. Like, I could see how that would really make a difference. But because we’re, you know, they’re not offered separate from this other set of beliefs that kind of either we don’t buy into or maybe we have a lot of friction with them, and we’re not really often given the opportunity to just cherry pick or like, kick the tires of it all and say like, well, what about this? We kind of throw the whole thing away. We walk away from all of it rather than saying no, like, take what makes sense to you. You know, take what feels good to you, what feels nourishing and what might work to you, and travel forward with it and then bring it to others if you want. So I love that you kind of looked at this and said, you know, okay, so I’m not the type of person who just says yes to because somebody else is telling me this is the way it is. And you kept exploring and found sort of like a different way into a similar body of work, but in a way that felt much more intuitive and holistic to you.
Shankari: [00:09:22] Yes. I love that word holistic. Absolutely. Wow. You said so many things that excited me right then. So I’m just kind of like just sitting with what you just shared. I’m like, man, I could go in so many directions. Why don’t you lead me?
Jonathan Fields: [00:09:37] Well, let’s let’s. Why don’t we dive into ifs right. Because, um, I want to really explore that with you. And I want to explore your take on it in particular. So for a lot of folks listening, this may be entirely new to them. You know, the idea of internal family systems. And by the way, when we use the phrase ifs, it’s really it’s just shorthand for this thing called internal family systems, which a lot of people now call parts work. So for those unfamiliar, um, like maybe explain a little bit what it means to to work with parts of ourselves and why this approach is so different and powerful.
Shankari: [00:10:14] Um, yeah. So I’m really into helping support people to be empowered. And it’s like, to me, it’s so empowering because so often we can feel I can feel broken and it’s just like, oh, it’s empowering because it’s like there is an aspect of you. There is again, this Dao, right? This divine aspect that connects us all, like this universal energy. And that energy is inside of us and it’s not broken and it’s whole and we have access to it. And no matter how, like, you know, maybe we don’t feel like we’re worthy of love or. You know, any of these, like, extreme beliefs or ideas that we get about ourselves that we take. In because of traumas from when we were kids, most often then this self energy that we have. It’s always there, like the sun and the parts of ourselves come in these voices that is just like. Oh, I’m not worthy or, you know, I don’t want to do this or I’m frightened of this. Those are like clouds that obscure the sun, but the sun is always there. So, um, in parts work, we learn. It’s just like, oh, hey, I’m feeling, you know, nervous about something. And turning towards it with curiosity. City and it’s like, what is? What’s going on? Instead, be like, stop feeling that way. I don’t want to feel that way. I’m going to ignore it. I’m going to turn it out. And then it’s got to get louder and louder. And like as you mentioned earlier, like Somatically. It arises within the body. And then it’s like, oh, now I’ve got a migraine. And that’s really. Oftentimes it can be a part of ourselves that is been it’s having to shout because you haven’t been listening to it. And so now it’s creating these physical symptoms within you until you like slow down and turn towards yourself and listen and just sit and patiently welcome whatever arises. So it’s like it’s like even as I’m sharing this, I hear my language and it’s very spiritual.
Jonathan Fields: [00:12:36] Um, so when somebody hears this notion of parts of myself, my sense is that folks might struggle with this because, you know, we kind of have the sense of like, but there’s just me, you know, there’s like this monolith. I see one body, you know, like one brain, one meat suit, one whatever it is. Yes. Like, I’m just like a I’m a person, right? And now you’re talking about. It’s almost like you’re saying, well, there’s this one person over here that exists within you that feels angry, and another person that wants to protect you, and another person that feels hurt and another that’s really a dreamer and like. And but isn’t that all just me? And. Yeah. And parts work teases it out in a way which I think is interesting. So sort of like if somebody is working with you, somebody is like sitting down with you and you’re trying to you’re doing the dance of figuring out, are we going to work together? And they bring this up like, well, how do you speak to that?
Shankari: [00:13:27] Yeah. Well, to me the easiest thing is, is just like, okay, so let’s say I was invited to a party and and it’s just like, oh, it gets to be the time of the party. And part of me is like, yeah, I want to go out. And then another part of me is just like, I just want to just get in my jammies and get out some ice cream and watch a movie. You know, it’s like I love being with people, but I also have a part that feels anti-social. And so it’s just like, oh, I’d rather just, like, not make the effort of going out, and I just want to sit at home. So there to me is like such. It’s just like I think most people have had that experience where it’s just like, I want to do this. And then it’s just like, I want to do this completely opposite thing. And which 1 a.m. I going to do? And that’s where it’s like, you know, what happens within us is, is that, uh, you know, we have these aspects like, you know, you could call them like alter egos or within us, and they can get polarized and they get where it’s just like, you know, um, let’s say I want to grow and I want to do this new thing, and it’s just like, no, I want to stay where I am and I want to stay comfortable. And they get in this like tug of war.
Jonathan Fields: [00:14:40] So for sure, many people have experienced that. I’m raising my hand. Um, I’m probably going to experience that five times before the end of today. In all different ways. And for me, because I’m also I’m much more introverted and sensitive. Um, like, my experience is often, well, you know, maybe I’m invited to this gathering and, and I think about the gathering and I’m like, oh, there would be interesting people there who I’d love to have conversations. Or maybe there’s professional opportunity there. Maybe. Maybe there’s some a voice in my head. Maybe there’s a part that’s saying, oh, you should go to this because it’s going to open doors for you that are really important. And then the other part is like, but dude, like, you’re you’re a quieter, sensitive person. Like, you just want to hang out at home and like, this is going to make you really uncomfortable. You know, so like one part is like, go do this thing. And it’s not necessarily a want thing. It’s more of like the it’s sort of saying, you should do this because the benefits on the other side of it are things that you keep saying that you want. Right. And the other part is like, yeah, but I’m going to be really uncomfortable doing that. And I have no doubt like people tuning into this conversation have their version of it, right. Like, how would you even start to think through something like that?
Shankari: [00:15:53] Hmm. Well, the word that you used was interesting because you said think. And, um, so that’s like, oh, of this multitude within us is, uh, is oftentimes we have a really strong thinker who wants to think our way out of things. And so it’s just like first noticing, it’s just like, oh, you know, that may be a part. And I just want to share with folks that like, one way is I love using that word tease as we tease apart, like, what’s this? This sort of like this village within us, you know, this, this community is called internal family systems. And one way you can think about it is like, oh, there’s like a family inside of me, you know, and, and sometimes people are really connected with their, um, like, their inner teenager or with, you know, their inner child. And actually, I’m just going to switch tracks real quick and I’m going to just share that. It’s like like in a lot of the modalities that I’ve learned and benefited from, they would often say just, you know, just love your inner child.
Shankari: [00:16:59] And I’m just all like, but how? How do I love my inner child? I don’t understand. And so I’d be like, all like like I’d be all activated or upset about something. And I’m like, I love you. And it’s just like, ah, you know, I feel like this inside. And then I’m like, I love you. I’m here for you. And it’s just all like, it’s not working. And so for me, it is a way in which we can actually communicate with, like our inner child, for example, and really form a relationship and have it respond and have it know that I’m there for it and I can take care of this little inner wounded child and that I can actually help. What’s called is like a technical term. Unburden. It’s a shamanic term as well. Unburden this inner child of the wound that it’s carrying. When it took in this message, when I was like two years old and I did something and I got yelled at and it took that in meaning like, oh, I’m not lovable. There’s something inherently wrong with me.
Jonathan Fields: [00:18:01] Um, so it’s almost like you have. So you have a family existing. I’m visualizing now. Okay. So, you know, I’ve got a little family that just kind of, like, resides inside of me, and each one of them has their own agenda.
Shankari: [00:18:14] Yes. And that’s so perfect because that’s what I was going to share. Is that the difference, the way you can tell, like a part of yourself versus like, well, how do I know? It’s like I’m all me, right? So how can I tell? So even though I’m all me, there are sometimes these voices where it’s just like, I don’t feel like going out tonight, you know? And so it’s like, well, how can I tell whether I’m in what’s called self energy, whether I’m tapped into my core essence, you know, my intuition or whether I’m in like, you know, what’s known as blended with a part of myself. And, you know, one of these voices that I hear. And it’s because the parts of ourselves have agendas and self-energy, this core essence of ourself does not have an agenda. It’s this inner healing agent.
Jonathan Fields: [00:18:59] So if you’re feeling an agenda, then pretty safe. Bet one of those parts is rearing its head and saying and probably waving its finger inside of you, saying, this is the thing that has to happen, and we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. I think one of the interesting concepts around part’s work also is, you know, so we’ve got this family within us. We’ve got these different parts with different personalities, almost different agendas. They want different things, right? It would be easy, I think, and maybe almost intuitive to sort of say, well, let me line up the different people in here. Like, let’s look at each one of the family members. Right. And start to label them okay, good. Bad. Helpful, unhelpful. Because that’s what we do. We put people outside of us in buckets. So I’m guessing that like when you see this in the work, like we try and put the people inside of us into those buckets of good, bad, helpful or unhelpful to.
Shankari: [00:19:56] Well, see, that’s the amazing thing, is that these aspects within us, they are more than what we would label them as, like, let’s say it’s like, oh, I’ve got an inner critic and I’ve got a thinker, you know, and I’ve got one who feels who’s angry. I got an angry one, you know? And it’s just like, it’s so easy to think that that’s all that they are. But once you actually start forming a relationship to what you, because you are hearing the voices, you are, you know, you are responding and you’re kind of being, you know, we get a little bit hijacked by our parts and a little bit like we’re puppets of them. And so it’s like when we create some separation, we can actually be in relationship with them rather than acting out how they are. So it’s like, I don’t need to to, you know, act in an angry manner. When I actually listened to that one who I maybe have labeled as angry, but who actually is like, much more complex and, and it’s got a whole it’s like it’s very fractal because it’s like the macrocosm is reflected on the inside is the microcosm.
Jonathan Fields: [00:20:58] Yeah. No, that makes sense. So if we look at each one of these different parts, let’s say the angry part, right? Pretty safe bet we all have in some way in us in angry part. Maybe it’s not angry right now, but but, you know, it’s probably in there. Maybe it’s kind of snoozing right now. Let’s say the angry part pops up, right? You’re in a conversation with somebody, and the angry part starts to like, say like, take the lead here. And then probably not infrequently when we find out, we kind of like, realize we zoom the lens out for a hot second, we realize, oh, like, I’m actually coming into this conversation from a place of anger and that’s a bad thing. So like this angry part in me is taking the lead. And that’s a bad thing. Like, I need to actually figure out a way to to to shut them down or to turn them off because I don’t want that to happen. Right? I would imagine that’s a response a lot of times, but that’s not necessarily the constructive way to deal with this at all.
Shankari: [00:21:49] Exactly, exactly. So that’s our natural tendency, and that’s why it really helps to work with someone, especially to begin with. But the neat thing about IFS is that you can do it yourself as well, right? So it’s not like, you know, that’s why I think it’s very empowering because you can learn how to do it yourself and help yourself, but it definitely helps in the beginning to have someone help, facilitate and support your process and to hold space for everything that comes up, right. Because it’s like, oh, when I start to connect, it’s just like, okay, I’ve got this angry part, I’m feeling angry and I’m like, and I yelled at my kids. And then I go, you know, get some space and I go for a walk. And I realize, oh, geez, you know, I don’t want to be that person. I don’t want to be yelling at my kids, but it’s just like there’s just so much going on and I just feel so overwhelmed. And as you turn towards yourself with curiosity or it’s just like what was going on with me. You know, I know that I’m not only this angry thing. I know that it’s like, oh, I got a little activated. You know, something my husband said earlier in the day really triggered me. And it’s like that was that was kind of this undercurrent going on. And this is like the self-exploration and it’s like what’s what’s really happening. So it’s it’s having this approach and that’s where it’s like, that’s that healing agent of your core essence, your self energy, which is it’s like it has these qualities. There’s like these eight qualities that start with a C like calmness and curiosity and compassion. And when our parts, you know, all these voices within us can give us some space like, you know, it’s like that Inside Out movie.
Jonathan Fields: [00:23:34] Love that movie, by the way.
Shankari: [00:23:36] Yes. And it’s like it really shows its parts work and it’s like, so beautiful that that people can really see what’s happening. And it’s as we get space and it’s just like some separation where it’s like, this is not my whole identity. I’m not this angry person who’s so activated and triggered all the time. It’s like, oh, it’s like, you know, it’s over here and I’ve got some space and I can relate to it and can turn towards myself and, you know, this angry one. And it’s like underneath that there’s probably a little, um, for me, you know, a little girl who was really hurt. And that’s what, you know, the strategy that my parts came up with when I was little is this like, oh, she’s got to be angry and she’s got to, you know, you know, fight to be protected.
Jonathan Fields: [00:24:18] Um, so it’s less about trying to take that part that led to a behavior that you like, didn’t want to happen. And rather than trying to say, like, I need to snuff that out, like I need to, we need to just put an end to this angry part, you know, like acknowledging that this is actually a part that’s within me. And that part has probably also served some sort of important purpose. Like, I’m here now, like, and maybe the fact that I’m here now, maybe I’m not as happy or functional, whatever it is now as, as I could be, or I’d love to be, but but I’m here now, and there’s a lot of good in the fact that I’m here now. So maybe the fact that there is an angry part in me has served some role in keeping me, you know, okay, enough to be here now and maybe going deeper and exploring, like, what is the intent underneath the anger that I can understand? Because I would imagine if you sort of like try and do battle with a part like any person on the outside, like you’re in, you’re inside part, your person on the inside who’s angry is going to put up the shields and get defensive, too. And it’s not going to be helpful.
Shankari: [00:25:21] Exactly. It’s not very productive. Yeah. And guess what? We’ve tried that right? How many times have we all tried that and where does it get us. Right. So I don’t know do something different, actually. And, um, you know, turn towards yourself with some curiosity and some compassion. And that’s what that’s what I know from this work, is that all of these parts and aspects of ourselves is just like all of these different voices, all these different characters and different emotions. It’s just like they have the best intentions for you. You know, the one that’s so angry is trying so hard to help you and protect you. It does not feel like that. It does not look like that. Okay, but it’s true. And so as you find out, it’s just like they just want to be heard and witnessed and validated and, and and that validation has to do with it’s just like, yeah, when I was a little kid, that’s a strategy that I needed. And that worked for me. And now it doesn’t work anymore. And now it’s becoming a problem and it’s actually hurting me. And this part. Like when it hurts, when it hears that. Like if the anger one hears, it’s just like, oh, it’s actually hurting my relationship with my husband. When it hears that, it’s just like, oh, criminy, I was just trying to help you. And then it just becomes a lot more motivated to actually, you know, to help you. And and the way that it becomes free to be able to do that, to do something different is by having you, you know, kind of shower this self-compassion and curiosity towards yourself.
Shankari: [00:26:59] And then the angry one is like, well, tell you all about, well, here’s why I’m angry. And I’m actually protecting this little one who is like, you know, two years old and got yelled at and took in this message. And then it’s like through this process, in ifs of unburdening, we can help the little one who’s known as an exile, to let go of this belief, this extreme belief or idea that was never true and was not theirs and that was put upon them. And so then it can release this idea that’s just like, oh, there’s something inherently wrong with me. I’m unlovable. And then the little one who’s in exile, like, can come and return to the rest of my system and brings these gifts and wisdom and all of our parts. They can look angry and be all kinds of ways, but it’s like within them, they all have these gifts and wisdom, and they communicate through our body and in other ways. And like, you know, like I said, like somatically, it’s like, oh, it’s like, what happens if I get these migraines every time my sister calls me? It’s just like, oh, there might be some kind of connection there. And, you know, um, not that all migraines come from, you know, but, uh, but there’s definitely they communicate through our body. Yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:28:12] So then the the way that we might think about it is more if we, if we identify this angry hardness or this hurt, pardon us or this protector. Pardon us. Right. And it’s leading to behavior that we just don’t feel is helpful. For who we are and the life that we have now, and the relationships that we have now, rather than trying to eliminate it or do battle with it. It’s almost like we do the opposite. We we acknowledge it. We we thank it because at some point when that behavior was established, if we go back in time, it sounds like there was a good intent. It was trying to keep you alive, to protect you, to create an outcome that was safe for you. So, like, there’s a there was a purpose. There was a reason that this part took on that personality at some point. So it’s almost like we go back and say, okay, there was some sort of benevolent intent. There was a there was a good purpose, good intention there and almost acknowledge it and say thank you in a way, because that behavior, you know, like kept me. Okay. But if we zoom the lens forward now, I don’t need that same response to keep me okay in the life that I’m living now and the relationships that I’m having now. So can we have a conversation about maybe exploring a different way of showing up? I mean, I’m probably totally butchering it here, but does that make sense?
Shankari: [00:29:32] You you got it. You’re so right on. I was like, oh my God, you could be a great teacher of this. Yeah, absolutely. Except for the last part. Okay. Yeah. And and so that’s where getting to know the parts and finding out. Like what? What’s your story, what happened for you. And oftentimes, you know, people get this information within themselves in different ways. But it’s like an image might flash or they might hear like, you know, a word or something within themselves as they’re turned in internally. And so it’s like I facilitate and hold space for someone to go onto that internal journey. And I help guide them with these questions. And the questions help support their getting into contact and finding out what’s really happening, what’s going on. So there might be like an image that pops up and it’s just like, oh, it’s like I see me as like a little two year old and I’m crying and I’m rocking or something, and there’s like a broken plate, you know? And it’s just all like, oh, oh my gosh. Wow. You know, there could be this cognitive moment where it’s just like, oh, I get what’s going on. And I’m like, oh, wow. Yeah, that happened. And I can understand why. It’s like you felt like you needed to step in and that I needed to be angry and push out, um, when I felt this way, because otherwise I felt so small and worthless.
Jonathan Fields: [00:30:55] So. So I’m curious now, you mentioned there are questions, and I know these are questions that I’m sure you ask and explore when you’re working with somebody, are there some questions that you might be able to share?
Shankari: [00:31:05] Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:31:05] That we could think about to sort of explore this.
Shankari: [00:31:08] Yeah. And absolutely. And that’s why it’s so wonderful. I just want to share that IFS is awesome because it’s really something that people can explore on their own. They can go to a facilitator or a practitioner about. And so there’s meditative free meditations. There’s there’s all kinds of of tools. And these, these questions are freely publicized. So you can definitely do the work on your own. But I will say it can be hard when we’re so in that place that’s known as being blended with apart, which is where it’s just like, this is me, right? I don’t understand, it’s just like, yeah, I hear these different, you know? Yeah, I want to go out and I don’t want to go out, but it’s still this is me. It’s it’s really hard, I find, to have the support to turn inwards and get enough space from like, like, let’s say my angry part, especially because, you know, some of these emotions can be so strong. But, you know, one of the magic I just love this question. And it’s so cool too, because there’s there’s this whole neurobiological aspect to it. So like it’s I got my angry parts up and it’s like, let’s say I just yelled at my husband or something and I went into the next room and I’m just like, what’s going on? You know? I’m like, I’m so angry. I could kill him, you know?
Shankari: [00:32:21] And then it’s just like. And then it’s like, it’s like, okay, yeah, I’m feeling really angry. And then it’s just like, okay, well, how do I feel towards this anger that I have? So the magic question is how do I feel towards and neurobiologically? It’s so cool that because that word towards it’s not how do I feel about, it’s towards. And because it’s like we have all of these different parts of our brain and they light up at different times for different reasons. And that word towards helps light up, like, I think it’s your prefrontal cortex, and it helps to light up this part of your brain that is a bit like the witness consciousness. And that’s the part of the brain in which you could feel compassion or self-compassion, and it distances and it creates some space, like as I keep saying, we got to kind of create space, especially when it’s like I’m so blended with my anger. So I’m so infuriated. It’s like, well, how well, how do I get some space from this? Because when I get some space, this happened to me earlier today is it’s just like, oh, all of a sudden I feel calmer and then I feel more creative and I’m like, oh, well, actually, you know, the this guy’s coming to repair something and he can come, you know, at 2:00 after this podcast interview. But I didn’t when I was just all like, oh my God, when’s he going to come? I didn’t have access to those qualities of this self energy, this core essence which has those those qualities of that creativity, clarity, calmness, courage, curiosity.
Shankari: [00:33:56] So that’s when our lives can really change, right? Like I was saying before, it’s like people say, well, you know, just love your inner child. Well, how do you do that? You know, and how do I make the change in my life where I’m not, you know, when when something happens where I get activated, I don’t immediately, like, lash out, like I, you know, I was a child. I was lashed out at. And so. So how do I actually make that change? And it’s just like oh okay. Yeah. Wow. It’s like, you know, I feel like some healing has happened because it’s like, I can sit here and I can, you know, have this thing that formerly inflamed me and activated me. And now it’s like, oh, it’s like maybe something is like, just like I’m upset about something when this happens and it’s like, okay, well, you know, let me listen to you. What are you upset about? Oh, that makes sense. Thank you for sharing that with me. And then it’s like, I don’t need to, you know, go to marriage counseling because, you know, I yelled at my husband.
Jonathan Fields: [00:34:57] Yeah. I mean, the change in language, the question is, if I got it right, how do I feel toward this particular part? Or like the behavior that this particular part is expressing right now, which does feel really different to me than how do I feel about like, how do I feel toward, like the angry part rather than how do I feel about to me, for some reason, my brain immediately goes into judgy mode, whereas toward goes into curiosity mode and I don’t. It’s weird because I’m a language geek and, um, it’s a little weird to me that that’s very what seems like a very slight change in language actually feels like it just it allows me to step into the inquiry just really differently.
Shankari: [00:35:39] Yeah. And even more exciting than that to me, is the fact that there is a neurobiological. We have like proof in the science world and people love the science. Right. And it’s like there’s proof that it lights up a different part of your brain. And this part of your brain is, is that kind of, like I said, that witness consciousness where there’s this separation, it’s just like, oh, and now I can feel compassion. And one of the cool things is it also when you feel compassion, it drips this Gaba, which is this really yummy, like neuro chemical onto your limbic system, which is another part of your brain. And it’s just all like yum, yum, yum. And it just relaxes your whole system. And it’s just all, like, angry. Who’s angry? You know? And so it’s like, you know, and that’s like I guess sometimes folks experience things like that when they get in touch with non-ordinary reality and altered states that come, come about through meditation or prayer states or shamanic journeys or, you know, psychedelics, all different kinds of ways in which we can access that type of consciousness.
Jonathan Fields: [00:36:50] Mhm. Yeah. I mean, gaining access to that state is a very I actually just recently sat down with a neuroscientist who is doing research on out of body experiences. It’s fascinating. She’s literally examining what’s happening in the brain during out-of-body experiences and showing these profound changes. But one of the things that the research was showing was that these experiences tend to give people access to empathy and compassion both towards themselves, like self-compassion and also empathy towards other people. And that’s kind of like you’re describing this without necessarily having an out-of-body experience. Like, like a change in language can sort of like create the distance that allows you to then see and experience and acknowledge this part that’s within you, almost with more openness and empathy and kindness. And in doing that, then almost like sit down and have a cup of coffee with them to like figure things out rather than go and fight it out and duke it out, which is never going to end well.
Shankari: [00:37:52] Exactly. Or trying to put it in that box. Exactly. You got it. And that’s what I like to share with folks, you know, and like, like initial meetings is it’s like, oh, it’s like, this is like a meet and greet. You know, it’s like you’re just going to get to know some of the folks inside of you. And, you know, whoever shows up is who we’re going to communicate with and learn more about. And so, yeah, it’s a little meet and greet, a little coffee klatch. Absolutely. Sit down and have some coffee instead of trying to fight. Because, like, like you shared. It’s just like trying to stuff it away. Trying to repress it, trying to silence it, trying to to fight with it. Does does not work.
Jonathan Fields: [00:38:31] Right. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. So do any of these parts ever actually go away? Not because we’re trying to like, extinguish them or, you know, like, but do we ever reach a point where that angry part, that hurt part, you know, that that’s throwing up protection and maybe the protection is anger or rage, whatever it may be. Do we get to a point where we have that coffee, where we acknowledge it? We we see the good intentions behind it. We acknowledge that, yes, this served a really important purpose. Like at some point in my past, that’s no longer necessary. Does that part just stop acting in that way, or does the angry part in you effectively just kind of sublime into the ether?
Shankari: [00:39:18] Yeah. Um, and, you know, this is something that, as one works with their parts sometimes that’s a fear that they have. It’s just like, oh, it’s just like, if I stop this role of implementing this strategy that no longer works, then am I devalued? And then am I cast away from the system and no longer a part of the family?
Jonathan Fields: [00:39:41] So this is like the part basically making that argument.
Shankari: [00:39:44] Yeah. And it’s just like, it’s so scary. Can you imagine? It’s like, oh, I’ve been this key player. I’ve been running the show and and it’s like, now I see that, you know, because we’ve been communicating. It’s like, oh, I see, it’s just like, this isn’t working and it’s not helping. And I actually do want to help you. I mean, I know that’s why I started this whole job, but, you know, to begin with and then, you know, as you communicate with them, you, um, one of the questions is also it’s like, oh, well, if you didn’t have to do this strategy, which my example is like, you know, get all angry if you didn’t have to do that. What would you rather do? And then the and then the parts like. Mm I don’t know. But it sounds good not to have to do that. You know, it’s like it’s because it’s tiring and it takes up so much of our vital energy. And so one of the neat things about this is as this part gets healed, like this angry part gets healed through this process, I can share more about then you gain like, you know, like I shared this like these parts have um, like treasures and wisdom and gifts for us, and they also have a lot of energy. So when we don’t fight against them, that’s like that. Now I got so much more energy because I’m not fighting all the all the energy is going into the fight. Right? And instead of this one having to do this job of me getting angry, I mean, obviously you could see like physically how much energy that would take. Then then that vital energy comes back to me and can flow in my body. You know, again, the somatics and the energetics so it can flow in my body. And then I’ve got much more access to my life force.
Jonathan Fields: [00:41:23] So when that part then becomes healed, is that what you were describing earlier as unburdening or is that something different?
Shankari: [00:41:31] Yeah, exactly. I just want to also share that there’s parts within us that don’t have any of these burdens of like an extreme belief or idea where it’s like I’m intrinsically worthless. There’s plenty of parts within us that are not wounded, right? And they’re whole. And they help us to, you know, live our lives. And then we’ve got these other ones who are trying to help us live our lives. But it’s like that strategy doesn’t work anymore. And there’s and and it’s pointing out, actually, that there’s a wound and there’s an opportunity to do some healing. And that’s why I say that. It’s just like being activated by like, you know, someone else or by something is a gift. You know, it doesn’t feel like it. It’s like all of a sudden I’m really, you know, really freaking angry. Um, and so it’s like, this doesn’t feel like a gift, but, you know, it is a gift because it’s like, that’s a red flag where it’s like I have wounding in me. And here’s an opportunity to heal it because I can’t heal it if I’m not aware of it. And when it pops up, I’m aware of it. And it’s it’s real and it’s on and with support, you know, I can like, turn towards myself and I can actually help that and heal. And so the healing process is where once the protectors have given permission. So there’s protectors and there’s exiles and then there’s healthy ones, you know, are ones that have been unburdened of their wound and or never had a wound.
Shankari: [00:42:54] And so once the protectors give permission, they’re the ones who have this, like, like a job or a role where they’ve got that strategy and they’re enacting it. And that’s what kind of causes trouble in your life. Um, and within yourself. And they give permission for you to make contact with the exile, who are usually these little children and like your inner child, and you get access to the little ones, and then you help heal them. And it’s all at their own pace, and it’s in their own timing. And it’s not because it’s just like, it’s not like because I want to heal you and you’re going to heal and I’m going to rescue you. That does not work. That’s an agenda. That’s just another part. Right. And the this other one’s not going to buy it. The other child’s not going to buy it. So it’s like coming from that place of that calmness and clarity and compassion and curiosity. Then it’s just all like, you know, hey, I’m here for you. And there’s this opportunity to let go of this heavy burden that you’ve been carrying, which in this example I’ve been using is it’s just like I’m intrinsically worthless and unlovable because I broke a plate and they yelled at me and I was too. Right. So it’s like we make the offer and it’s just like, hey, you don’t have to do it. But I want you to know that that there’s a ritual that we can do and it can really help you out. And you don’t have to carry that, you know? And this is only after communicating with them and hearing what’s been going on for them.
Shankari: [00:44:23] You know what they’re carrying. Exactly. So that’s the healing process. And when that one is ready and if it wants to, it can let go of everything that it’s been carrying. Or it maybe might feel like it’s like, you know what? I need to hold on to a little bit of this. You know, I’m not ready to let go of everything that happens to. So it’s like, you know, like there’s not a pressure where it’s just like you’ve got to heal and you’ve got to heal in a certain time, and you’ve got to heal completely, right? Because what happened to us in trauma when we were little kids is that we didn’t have any self-agency. And so it’s really about it’s like that’s where it says like, oh, I might be calling it the angry part, but as I get to know it, the protector. Who’s the angry one? As I get to know it, it’s just like, hey, what do you want me to call you? And it might say, it’s like, you know, sometimes people are like, it says the craziest things. Like, it’s like, you know, forest cloud. And it’s just like, well, I don’t know why, but it’s just like, let’s go with it. You got to watch out. Sometimes another part will try to name it right, or you’ll try to name it because you’ll be at another part. And it’s just like, that doesn’t work.
Shankari: [00:45:29] You don’t want to be named by somebody else. They want their own agency. Because like I said, when I was a little kid, it’s just like I didn’t have my own agency. So that unburdening process frees up this, this one who was exiled away from your system, from the internal family. And it frees them up. And they let go of this like belief that there’s something wrong with me, and then it’s welcomed in to like that family again and connection. And that is so incredibly healing. And then neurobiologically, there’s this cool thing. There’s this thing called memory reconsolidation. So that actually happens in this unburdening process. And that’s where, you know, we’ve got our neural networks and we’ve been doing something for 40 years. It’s like I’ve been getting angry for 40 years, and I’ve got this deep groove and path that my neural network, the energy flows down and it’s like, oh, it’s like when this thing, when I get activated, this thing, this thing’s going to happen. And so it’s like, I’m like a, you know, it’s like I’m a slave to my programming and it’s just like, I have to do this thing because I think that’s, you know, I think I’m afraid that this thing’s going to happen. And so during this process, memory reconsolidation is something that happens naturally, but knowing about it, you can help support it. And it’s consciously in eMDR, which is that eye movement healing modality. And then there’s a bunch of modalities like IFS that didn’t consciously know about it, but it makes use of.
Shankari: [00:47:03] And so this is where it’s like so wild that science is backing all of this stuff up. And to me, it’s also there’s a spiritual angle to it. So the neural network is like, oh, I’m intrinsically wrong. And then it’s like, oh. And yet it’s just like, oh, like my core essence is caring for me. This is that little child who’s just like, oh, I feel this terrible way. And then it’s like, oh, here’s an example of where I am being loved. And it’s like my emotion is not too much and I am lovable exactly the way that I am. And I’m not. You know, I don’t have to change how I am. And now the energy can start moving in that direction and under the neural network and and then the old pattern no longer, you know, that neural network shuts down. And so that’s memory reconsolidation where it’s just like, oh, like when I was that two year old child 40 years ago, this thing happened and I had been stuck at that. Part of me was trapped in time and space where it was always happening. And now it’s like we take that, that, that little one, that two year old out of that situation. And now it comes to be in the present moment with me and it’s free. And so so that changes everything. And then now the energy goes down this new neural network. So it’s like this blending of this, you know, this spiritual and neurobiological and, and mystical, you know, process.
Jonathan Fields: [00:48:29] Yeah. I mean, it sounds really powerful. One of the questions that’s sort of lingering with me is you described, you know, when you so you, you address the protector who sort of gives you access to the exile, which often is some, some form of, of younger version of you, maybe even early childhood where something happened where they took on a belief system like this is my belief, like about my self-worth. And then you sort of like inquire into, are you ready to let this go without forcing it, without saying, like, it’s time you have to do this now. How do you know? Like how does the exile know when they’re ready? Or how do we know when the exile is ready?
Shankari: [00:49:08] Say, they make it quite clear. You know, all you got to do is ask. And because you’ve been working on this internal relationship with the angry one and the and the inner child, and this can, this can happen like in one 90 minute session. Or it might be something that happens over a couple different sessions. And you just ask them and they’re like, okay, you know, and or they’ll say, no, I’m not ready yet. And it’s just like, okay, well, what do you need in order to be ready? And you don’t ever have to be ready, right? That’s the thing. It’s like all parts are welcome. You don’t ever have to change, right? It’s just like, I accept you and love you the way you are. That’s what we didn’t get at the time of the trauma, right? We didn’t get. I accept you and I love you the way you are.
Jonathan Fields: [00:49:50] So maybe even that alone has like an effect of of allowing that part, that exile in particular, to start to reshape its beliefs.
Shankari: [00:49:59] Leaves. Absolutely, yes. Because it’s like, oh my gosh. And that’s that memory consolidation to it’s like, oh my gosh, I’m actually receiving the thing that I didn’t receive. And it’s just like, oh healing right? Yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:50:14] Yeah. Ifs it sounds so interesting. And for somebody who’s never heard of this before, they’re probably like following along this conversation and in part interested and part suspect, like, wait, really like watch seriously, watch the.
Shankari: [00:50:29] Movie Inside Out. There’s a one and a two.
Jonathan Fields: [00:50:31] Right? There’s like, there’s like a family dinner table inside of me and like, we’ve got, like, all the dysfunctional, like, people who are showing up and the functional people are showing up and it’s like, but it is interesting. And what’s interesting to me is I’ve been sort of like watching the body of work around it, and it really has become I mean, I feel like CBT has for a long time has really been the primary mode of therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy, and I’m just seeing variations of ifs and parts work really becoming a part of therapeutic offerings like whether it’s on the spiritual side, whether it’s on the more traditional academic side, whether it’s that there’s something to a modality when I start to see such widespread adoption. And then I talk to people who have told me about just profound, profound shifts that have happened after years of trying to make those shifts happen in different ways. You know, the I think the invitation here is to just be open to exploring, you know, because I think there’s a lot of richness in the body of work around parts and around ifs and the way that different people are approaching parts of work as well. If we if we zoom the lens out a little bit here. Do you have a sense for what parts work might do for us at scale? You know, I think we’re in a moment in culture in the world right now where there is a lot of rage, there is a lot of anger, there’s a lot of hurt and pain and a ton of protection. I wonder if you think you know beyond the work that you do individually and with groups. You know about the the potential for these ideas at scale?
Shankari: [00:52:10] Mhm. Yeah. Um. First off, you know, be the change you want to see in the world. Right. When we talk about going scale. Right. And then I just want to bop back to what you were previously saying, which is the difference between like CBT and IFS is that IFS is experiential. And so it’s just like, do not take my word for anything. Go and try it. Right. Learn a little bit and try it yourself. And it’s just like the proof is in the pudding. Um, so that’s what’s neat about it. And that’s why it’s such a dramatic shift. And it’s like, what does the word experiential mean? It means that you’re actually doing it instead of talking about doing it. And that is a really powerful difference. And so so I just want to encourage people just there’s so many different ways. Like I said, there’s free meditations. There’s all kinds of things that just like little tiny supports or tools to just try it out and see for yourself. And if you’re interested, then you can go deeper.
Jonathan Fields: [00:53:10] Mhm.
Shankari: [00:53:10] Yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:53:11] So as we have this conversation there is a lot of fear and anxiety and for some a sense of hopelessness or powerlessness for many. And those are probably, you know those, those to a certain extent you could say, well those are also parts of ourselves speaking. But as you said earlier, those are not the only parts of ourselves. Like we have playful parts, curious parts, hopeful parts. What inspires you and makes you feel hopeful and powerful these days?
Shankari: [00:53:37] Mhm. Wow. That’s a good question. Um, well, I have really been doing the practice of, of ifs because it’s like I see it as like a, you know, ifs it can be many things, like you said, very academic, very more, you know, kind of out there like I am, but I see it as like a daily practice. And for me, it’s a daily spiritual practice. And so getting to know my interior landscape and make friends within myself, it’s like I have seen it’s like I have become a better friend to other people. Um, I’ve become a better person. I know myself so much more. I can tolerate these different sensations. And actually, right before this, this podcast, I was just like, oh, I was feeling really nervous. And it’s like, I know there’s some specific parts that I’ve worked with. And I’m like, you know what? I just need y’all to give me some space. Um, I’ve got I just need some space for two hours. I feel you and I see you and I witness you, and I’m going to come back to you in two hours and know that that I’m. You know, I’m still connected with you. But right now, I need space from this feeling of vibration in my body of that nervousness. And as I did that, then it’s just like, oh, I felt like this. It had been in the center of my chest, this vibration, this kind of vibration.
Shankari: [00:55:00] And then it moved out to my fingertips and to my feet. And so I was just like, okay. And so then I was like, okay, I’m walking and I’m feeling my feet against the floor and I feel this vibration. And then it’s just like, oh, I’m stepping into my power. And it’s like, oh, this shift from this nervous system, no matter what, I’ve got energy running in me. Right? And there’s, there’s these parts that are like, oh, that energy is we’re nervous. And and then it’s just like, oh, but this energy also can be the excitement of empowerment, of stepping into my power. And so it’s just like, well, you know, how do I harness what’s what’s happening inside of me and communicate and, and be in like, community and be, you know, led. So that’s just an example from, from, you know, the activation of the energy in my body from from being nervous or excited about coming on this podcast and how I utilize that. And I find that very empowering. Instead of being kind of like, um, like you said, it’s like there’s a lot of despair and hopelessness out there, and it’s like, I may have that within me, and I have other aspects that I can draw on, and both can exist at the same time. And I don’t need to stop one from communicating with me in order to embody the other of that, that empowerment.
Jonathan Fields: [00:56:23] I love that. Um, it feels like a great place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of Good Life Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
Shankari: [00:56:33] Oh, to live a good life, I say thank you. Oh thank you. It feels like a blessing to live a good life. Yes, I say yes to that.
Jonathan Fields: [00:56:43] Hmm. Thank you.
Shankari: [00:56:44] You’re welcome.
Jonathan Fields: [00:56:47] Hey, if you love this episode, Safe bet, you’ll also love the conversation we had with Dr. Mariel BuquΓ© about breaking free from inherited trauma. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by, Alejandro Ramirez, and Troy Young. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music, and of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you’re still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seven-second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that’s awesome too. But just one person even then, invite them to talk with you about what you’ve both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.