Want a deeper, more secure, fiercely connected relationship? Then, you’ll want to check out the power of relationship agreements.
In this episode, we sit down with Krista and Dr. Will Van Derveer. Will is a psychiatrist and author of the book Psychedelic Therapy, and Krista is a Relational Leadership Educator who helps partnerships move from the “I Operating System” to a “We Operating System.”
We explore:
- How to craft your own sacred relationship agreements that keep bringing you back to love, no matter how much friction you find yourself in.
- The wildly surprising “Couch Time” technique that uses mammal-to-mammal co-regulation to stop a heated argument in 60 seconds.
- A simple shift in perspective that allows you to stop seeing your partner as a “fixed object” and start seeing them with fresh eyes.
- The “Abundant Repair” protocol for ensuring you never go to bed with tension still lingering in your body.
- Why most “implicit” agreements fail and how to write down the 24 sacred guardrails that protect your connection.
If you are tired of the same old arguments and want a relationship that actually empowers your individual potential, this conversation is for you. Click play to learn how to transform your partnership into a powerhouse of growth.
You can find Krista & Will at: The Art of We | Get the Top 10 Relationship Agreements | Episode Transcript
Next week, we’re sharing a really meaningful conversation with Dr. Deepika Chopra about toxic positivity and how to be optimistic without tipping into delusion, distraction, or even harm.
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Episode Transcript:
Jonathan: [00:00:00] ——– We all want that sense of easy, stable love, but so often we find ourselves just kind of falling into the same old ruts. We assume we know what our partner’s thinking. We let small, you know, tension, simmer, and eventually the magic just starts to feel a bit like a chore. My guests today say, it doesn’t have to be that way.
If you’re willing to move from what they call an eye operating system to a we operating system. Krista and Will Van Derveer join me to talk about the quote, sacred guardrails or agreements that they use to keep their relationship thriving. Will is a psychiatrist and author of the new book, Psychedelic Therapy, and Krista is a leadership educator who specializes in.
How we relate to one another. Together, they host the Art of We Podcast. In this conversation, we’re exploring how to craft your own sacred relationship agreements that keep bringing you back to love, how to quote, gamble everything for love by servicing the things you’re usually. Too afraid to say. We talk about a [00:01:00] somatic couch tool for cooling down high conflict moments using simple biology and why Abundant repair is one of the secrets to feeling closer after a fight than you did before it even started it.
It’s a bit of a masterclass in how to build a partnership that isn’t just a, you know, a private love oasis, but an engine for your greatest work in the world. So excited to share this conversation with you. I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
Jonathan: So my opening curiosity here is where did this idea of, of agreements, um, and sort of like relationship driven agreements, especially in the context of personal relationships, –what’s the origin story for this?
Krista: when I met Will, I was working for a consulting -company and we were actually going into organizations. So it’s interesting that you bring this up this way because we were [00:02:00] bringing these practices about how to relate together in order to really move forward, the mission and to succeed interpersonally and also in what we’re up to together.
And before I met Will, I was like, wow, like I really wanna take this into my next partnership because this is incredibly supportive for the success of, in US individually and also as a a company at that point. And so when I met Will and we decided what kind of partnership we wanted, we decided to create agreements based upon.
Both of our backgrounds, what really worked and what really didn’t work, and also from some of our mentors that we’ve learned from and create these specific relationship agreements to help us accomplish what we wanted to accomplish in our partnership
at the time. And we did meet, you know, when I was mid forties and Will was late forties, so it was like a second half of our Lives partnership, where we had already learned a lot about partnerships and what worked and what didn’t work.
Jonathan: And just for clarity, we’re talking about [00:03:00] personal, um, partnership. We’re not talking about business partnership here, although it’s eventually evolved into that. But this is, you two meet, you’re later in life, you’ve had other relationships. Um, there have been things that have gone well and things that haven’t gone well.
Just like everybody out there and you come together and you’re kind of like, all right, um, how do we gather up what we’ve learned and, and set ourselves up optimally? So like, like that this thing can really work as good as it can work. Does is, is that kind of like land, right.
Krista: Yeah, and we’ll even go to our first, the first conversation we had on our first date. It was very personal to us, our personal relationship we wanted, but we both came to the same table, the same table with the same conversation of we really wanted our next partnership to be of service to the world, not just for our own little private love oasis.
And we knew that if we wanted to have that kind of partnership, that we would have to really create these agreements, these sacred guardrails of how we would [00:04:00] accomplish that together rather than just, you know, go day by day and hope that it happens. And we’d both come from relationships that, you know, were challenging, so we wanted something different.
Jonathan: Yeah. All right. Will, it’s your first date you sit down with Krista. How does the idea like of, of actually something like this come up on the first date? I mean, most first dates it’s like you’re dancing around, you’re talking about superficial stuff. You’re probably having a drink or two just to loosen up and let go of the nerves and anxiety.
This is a big, deep topic to just gets surfaced like right out of the gate.
Will: Well, I think it says a lot about who Krista is as a human, that we didn’t spend a lot of time on surfacey topics. We dove right in and, uh, we shut down the restaurant. It was a three and a half or four hour conversation, and it was just incredibly exciting to meet another person who had a very similar vision for what relationships could do.
[00:05:00] And, uh, you know, as Kirsten mentioned, you know, we both came from different kinds of experiences. In the past I’d been in a 20 year marriage where the agreements that we had were loosely based on our Buddhist practice, uh, which had advantages and it had limitations to it. Um, I could talk about those maybe in, in more depth if we get to that.
Um, but essentially the, the desire that I had of having a bigger expression or a bigger impact on the world, um, I was not able to realize that in the previous relationship I was in. And I knew that I needed a different set of agreements to be able to accomplish that. So, um, we’ve, we’ve really practiced these agreements now for how many years now, Krista?
Krista: Um, we’ll be married seven years this year and together nine years, but, but I don’t think you actually had relationship agreements [00:06:00] in your last relation. Your last relationship is that, are you
Will: I would say. We had guidelines based on our Buddhist teacher, which are that, you know, if you’re having emotional distress, it’s your problem personally, and it’s not a great idea. It’s, it’s, it’s definitely frowned upon in Buddhism to bring disturbances to your partner. Um, you go back to the cushion, uh, I don’t know if that’s true, Jonathan, in, in the yogic traditions, but, um, the concept sort of is that, at least what I was taught in in our Buddhist tradition was you, you need to have your own back.
You need to take that to the cushion, go, go meditate more. Um, your disturbance is not your partner’s problem. And there’s significant limitations in that perspective.
Jonathan: it’s really interesting, right? Because you have a lot of times when when stuff goes sideways in a relationship, you know, we go to like, what are the teachings that have been handed to us that feel like, you know, what are the guidelines that have come before us that have already established, and we’ll [00:07:00] just lock onto whatever it is that you know, that are the ones that we know and we’ll ride along with it.
Oftentimes it’s faith-based, it’s spiritual based. Sometimes it’s just the family culture that is handed down these traditions. And without fail there, there’s always some stuff which is like, wow, that is really powerful. It makes so much sense. It lands really well and there’s that stuff that raises your eyebrow a little bit and you’re kinda like, I’m not so sure about that. Then there’s the other bucket, which is like, are you kidding me?
Krista: Yeah.
Will: Right.
Jonathan: Um, you know, and I think we’ve, we all kind of go there, but oftentimes we don’t. The, the question is being raised in our minds, but we don’t actually, we don’t act on the question. We just act on the rote side of it because we’re like, well, this is, this is what’s been, you know, get handed to me.
It must work. So let me just follow those rules. Um, did you have a similar sort of like, set of imprints coming into this Krista?
Krista: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, for me it was like, um, I learned, like you’re saying from my family [00:08:00] about how to do relationship from our culture about how to do relationship from the people around me. But, but after. I had lost a partner, um, to a sudden death before I met Will, and, and we had a beautiful and also challenging relationship.
But after he died, I was, you know, after a year and a half of grieving, I was like, do I even really want a partnership again? And I remember the moment exactly where I was one of those moments where you can’t forget it. And I just stopped and I was like, oh, I want that more than anything, but only if it’s gonna be extraordinary.
And I don’t even know what that looks like. I don’t know how to get it. I’ve never seen it, but that’s what I’m standing for. And then I proceeded to go through some dating processes with my own self agreements about how I would show up for the dating in order to see if, if, if they would, if they and I would meet, you know what, I’m this kind of partnership that I was calling in.
So I was definitely coming from creating a different thing that I hadn’t seen before.
Jonathan: Yeah, that, do you remember that moment [00:09:00] where sort of, you know, like the, the switch was flipped, did something happen? Or was it just you’re walking along, you’re like, oh no, I’m just, I, I just know
Krista: Yeah, I was walking my parents’ dog, I was house sitting for them, and I was on the sidewalk, and I remember exactly, I was looking at this park and it was just like one of those lightning bolts I, nothing happened other than me asking the question of like, do I actually even want this? Do I want partnership?
It was so heartbreaking I went through with his death, and it was also such a challenge in the very end of his life, and also so beautiful. But I was like, wow, this is a lot of work. And, um, I realized that it, it had to be extraordinary again to, for me to say yes to
Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, I would imagine also, and tell me this, if this is right, that when you lose somebody in that way, the pain is so deep and so enduring that for you to say yes to the possibility of that happening again, like the stars have to align on a completely different level. Does that land?
Krista: That totally lands [00:10:00] because I knew that if, if I was gonna be in partnership again, it would be risky. I would lose a lot. I would have to love again. I might get heartbroken again. But that was totally worth it. But it was also easier to be in that conviction because if I didn’t get too extraordinary, then I was like, ah, I can live without it.
No big deal. I can do this myself, if that makes sense.
Jonathan: So the standard for you is just stunningly high. It’s like, I want this to happen. Like I want this to be a yes, but for it to be a yes. Some incredible things need to be in place.
Krista: Exactly, yes.
Jonathan: Were you coming from a similar place, Will?
Will: Well, I had been dreaming and journaling and very carefully detailing the qualities. Of the partner that I was calling in. And it was interesting because that piece of paper that where I worked that and, you know, crossed it out and erased it and rewrote it [00:11:00] and designed it, was in a workbook that someone had recommended to me that was on my bookshelf.
And after Krista and I had been together for a few years, I, I found that workbook and I opened up to that page and saw that document in there. And it was kind of spooky how clearly she met the description that I was writing for a couple years before I met Krista. So I, I, it sounds a little hokey, but I, um, I’ve come to believe that that energetic calling in is real and that that is something that really matters.
And when we set really clear intentions, uh, we’re sending out a message that, um, that matters.
Jonathan: You both come together. You both used a phrase that I think is really interesting and really unusual in what you wanted when you sat down for that first conversation. Um, which is you weren’t just looking for something that was going to satisfy you on a personal individual level. You were looking to [00:12:00] create a relationship that had a bigger impact that somehow affected people beyond the two of you. That is stunningly unusual. Do you, do you acknowledge that?
Krista: Totally. I think we were both a little bit in shock on our first date to be coming with that same conversation. It wasn’t like one of us influenced the other into that. We both literally came with that conversation. And Will, do you wanna share where you, you know, where you got that inspiration from?
Will: Well, another close friend of ours in Boulder Jason Gatis on his podcast, had the wonderful Remy translator, uh, Andrew Harvey as a guest a few years ago, and Andrew was talking about how. Deeply the world needs couples who are committed to change, uh, changing the world. And, uh, in his view, at least as expressed on that episode, was like, this is what the world needs now, is people who are committed to this and have each other’s backs and who are willing to, to grow and fall down and, and [00:13:00] race ahead and, you know, um, pick themselves up and pick each other up.
And so I, I was on fire with that, um, notion for a few weeks before our date started. And, uh, so that, that was where I got fired up about it.
Jonathan: So it’s like you both bring this thing to it because most people start a relationship, they’re like, okay, so maybe they make the list that you described. Well, I, I know somebody literally had like, had made a list with over a hundred, a hundred things that had to be on the list, the part that they were looking for.
Um, and okay, so maybe that’s overkill, but a lot of people do sit down and say like, I need this, I need that, I need this. Right. But generally those lists, they’re about like what I want for my life, about how I wanna feel in my relationship in my world. Like, it’s, it’s me, me, me, me, me. And look, there’s nothing wrong with that.
We, like, we all, we, we have needs and we have desires and we wanna get them met, right? On a very personal level. And to go beyond that and say, and like, not but, but, and [00:14:00] I also want this union to be a, an engine for something bigger. Um,
it’s just, uh, so highly unusual.
Um. Krista like on your side, like where did that come from?
Krista: Well, I can say that we talk about it now. I can say where it came from, but now we talk about it as moving from the I os I operating system to the We Os the We Operating System. And it’s actually really informed our partnership and how we make decisions and a lot of our agreements. But I think that for me, I, I, I’m kind of tired.
I, and before I met Will, was tired of, of the, knowing that there’s only a certain amount of impact that I personally, as one human being can have in the world. And, um, I, I’ve always tended to be very relationally oriented, really caring for the we of us and, you know, potentially it comes from maybe something that I was.
Wanting more in my life earlier on is, is, is to really be attuned [00:15:00] to and tracked. And I wanted to attune to others and track others and, but there’s always just kind of a knowing that we can do more than I can, which is our, one of our mottos that we have in our relationship. And, and it came very clear and it kind of came to a head that first date because I hadn’t met another human being.
Kind of like what you’re saying, Jonathan, who was coming with the same conversation and was a potential partner for me and we’re closing the restaurant down. So I think it really even stuck even more in that moment of, of we can do more than I can.
Jonathan: so then my curiosity is how do you move from there to, okay, so we’re getting serious with each other, you know, like we’re, we’re forming this partnership. Um, we need a set of agreements to guide it. Um, because again, this is a big wild leap that nobody else takes. There may be implicit agreements, right?
Like the things that you’re kind of like, yes, we kind of like agree on this thing. Yes. You know, like, we agree, we kind of share this type of value, right. [00:16:00] But it’s, it’s so unusual for somebody to sit down and say, okay, so here’s the deal. Um, we need to literally set up like written, clearly worded bylaws for this relationship. Um, were you both equally excited about this? Was was one person like hesitant? Like I and I here I think here’s the deeper question I’m asking. Um, especially in the early days of relationship. There’s a magic to it, right? There’s like this tingling part of the relationship. There’s like, Ooh, this is juicy, this is fun.
I I don’t wanna lose this. And, and I would imagine that there, we’ve got a lot of people joining us who they’re like, if you tell them, okay, so the next step here is to sit down and negotiate these like tightly worded agreements. They’re like, Ooh. But doesn’t that like kill the magic and everything?
Will: It might be counterintuitive to the listener, but it actually has the opposite effect of keeping [00:17:00] us very much alive and on our toes with each other. Uh, one example is, um, we v always, um, see each other with fresh eyes every day. And if you. Take that at a face value. Maybe the, the first impression might be like, oh, that’s, that’s beautiful and that’s sweet.
But when you start looking at it day after day, over years, how easy it is to slip into automating your partner, uh, just like you automate the room that you walk into when you come home, you kind of know where the couch is, you know where the chair is, you know where, where you throw your keys every day when you come in.
So it, it, if anything, I feel like it keeps the, the juices really fresh and keeps the passion, um, lit at a high level because there’s so much presence that’s required to pull it off to live by these agreements every day. So that’s, that’s my thought [00:18:00] on it.
Jonathan: Krista, where do you land?
Krista: Yeah, so I love your question because some people are like agreements that just sounds like horrible. Like we’ll get stuck in some sort of thing that we don’t wanna be in. And yeah, I agree with Will, where it’s like, for me, it, the agreements require me to grow personally and I’m both of us. Fortunately, which I think makes this work is that we’re high value.
We put a high value on growth. And so like another example is to assume positive intent. Now, this is becoming more popular out in the world that we assume positive intent, but when we’re in a rupture. Our conflict. That’s where the real growth become, becomes available, is like, oh, I’m not actually assuming positive intent right now.
And we can remind you, we gently remind each other because we already agreed upon it. And the problem with implicit agreements, ’cause you brought that up, Jonathan, is that when things get hard and we didn’t actually explicitly agree to it, [00:19:00] then those things go out the window. You know, when, when we’re in high conflict, high challenge, it’s like, I never agreed to that.
Or we can go there. And for me, these keep me growing because I know that they serve me, they serve Will and they serve the we of us, the, you know, the bigger entity that, that includes us, but also transcends us. And so for, for me, it becomes a really fun. Experience and it’s also not about beating each other up with, with the agreements when we fall down, it’s about calling each other in and supporting each other and their living agreements too, so we can change them whenever they’re not actually correct or we have actually a misunderstanding about them or they’re ready to be in, evolved into something else.
Jonathan: So. That makes sense to me. What if somebody’s listening to this? They’re watching and they’re thinking to themselves, okay, cool, cool, cool. Like you two are really into growth. Good for you. Right? You go grow, you do the personal development thing, you invest in all this stuff. You do the coaching and the [00:20:00] therapy.
And that’s, um, by the way, like, you know, like this has been both of your worlds. You know, like Krista, you’ve been the coach at the highest level for years and an executive and Will, you’ve been a psychiatrist and like, so like you are both just fiercely growth-oriented, but somebody’s joining us and they’re like, look what I want from my relationship.
I just want it to be easy. I want to be stable. I don’t need to be constantly evolving and growing and changing. I just wanna partner in a relationship that just feels good and peaceful for, as you know, as, as much as it can, as often as it can, and as long as it can. That what, what do you say to that person in the context of inviting them to still consider getting really detailed about relationship agreements
Will: well, I think that there are. Uh, differences in individuals about how, how much they want to grow or how hard they wanna work on themselves in, in one lifetime. And I’m completely okay with that. I don’t, I don’t have judgment about that. I mean, this goes to kind of the beginning of the [00:21:00] journey for me and Krista in, when we work with couples, is asking the question, what’s the couple up to, like, what are they here together in this relationship to do together?
Uh, maybe it’s being comfortable. Maybe it’s raising kids, maybe it’s starting a business together. It could be anything. Um, and then the agreements for that particular couple need to support what they’re up to together. Uh, so it’s really about, um, matching up agreements that support the fulfillment that that couple wants to have, as opposed to, Hey, everybody should be on, like the fastest rocket ship of growth there is.
Jonathan: It sounds like it’s kind of like what comes first then is a conversation that says something like. What is the shared vision for our relationship? Like what, actually what matters to both of us about where, what, what we [00:22:00] exalt and where we’re going. Does that make sense, Krista?
Krista: Totally. That’s actually, we talk about that a lot, is that that is the first conversation. And then I think the, the next, or maybe sub question to that is, who do we need to be or become in order to fulfill that? And then that’s how we start to, um, decide what are the relationship agreements. And you know, also like in the, in the question of the purpose of the partnership, it’s like, why specifically you and me, not just partnership in general, like why am I interested in being with you here?
And so it really helps us orient towards what agreements would be supportive.
Will: Krista, you, you said something I wanna, um, reflect on also, which is this notion of agreements when everything’s going fine, you’re like, you’re just kind of in cruise control with your partner. You know, maybe the agreements aren’t like super, they don’t come in on a, on a really regular basis.
But it sounds like where these become really important is where there’s conflict, where there’s challenge, where there’s this risk [00:23:00] of things going off the rails. Um, is that right?
Krista: Yes. And I would say one of our agreements, again, some of these are adapted by people that we admire, like Stan Tatkin in this case, is to have abundant repair. When there is misunderstanding or conflict or some sort of rupture, and that I think has been the best agreement for us to stay really connected And you know, abundant repair isn’t just like, okay, we’re good.
Like I get what happened for you. This is what happened for me. We’re good. It’s really working something out until we get, until I get to, this is my barometer, is that my body wants to be closer to Will’s body. Then I know that whatever we encountered. Is actually making us stronger, more aligned, more on the same page.
And that conflict can become a opportunity for deeper connection rather than there’s being, there’s something [00:24:00] wrong for us. And what I know for myself, if I’m not addressing rubs or tensions, conflict with will, then I start to go back into the IOS, the the I operating system where I’m just thinking about myself.
I’m just thinking about my needs, forget him. I’m disconnecting from him in some form. But when we really practice our abundant repair, then we’re really prioritizing the we of us, the the relationship over what I would do on my own if I didn’t stay committed to the connection
Jonathan: So will. And Krista, tell me, if I’m getting this right, like your, the signal for you that you’ve practiced this repair on a level where it’s actually becoming effective as you, like, you like, wanna feel you, you are returning to this thing of like wanting to actually feel physical closeness to will again. Will, what’s your signal?
Will: I can tell when there’s even just a little bit of tension left in my body that were not done with the repair. Um, [00:25:00] gosh, we could talk for a long time about repair, but there’s so much to, uh, being courageous enough to keep going until you’re finished with the repair. Uh, I think that’s one of the things that I’ve learned the most in this relationship with Krista is that.
What I thought was repair in the past, prior to Krista was not a complete repair. Uh, almost, you know, almost ever. It’s sort of like, I, I’m sorry I hurt your feelings and apology accepted and then move on. And, but there’s no emotional, um, completion to that. It’s more of an intellectual exchange, um, a transaction like, okay, I, I signed the document and submitted it and now we’re good.
Um, but the animal body knows when security is reestablished inside of the, the partnership, you know, through, uh, letting go of the tension. [00:26:00] And I, I think Krista described it well of like wanting to move closer to each other physically.
Jonathan: it’s so interesting to me also that you both referenced this somatic, um, signal, rather than saying cognitively of like, alright, I think we’re there. You know, like, I think we’ve talked about all the things that we need to talk about. I, I, I think we’ve resolved like, the major issues. You’re both like, no, no, no.
Like, that’s not like, we don’t stop working on this until both of our bodies are telling us like, we’re good.
Krista: Yeah, I mean for me, if I’m just in the cognitive conversation, then I’m probably missing something. Because I might be like, okay, I think we’re there.
Like, but how would I really know that we’re there? And if I, if I’m not wanting to feel closer to Will, then like crap, I have to look deeper. ’cause there I, we have our old strategies of staying safe and like not getting into conflict with each other. So I tend to mine or tend, I tend to dissociate from the negative impact that I’ve experienced so that I don’t have to actually [00:27:00] address it.
But I think will, like what you’re saying is somehow my body has more intelligence around that. So I have to go investigate a little bit deeper. And we do that often. We’re like, okay, are we fully repaired? One must be like, I don’t think so. So we have to kind of investigate more. It’s not always super clear about what needs to be attended to.
Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting to me also ’cause my, my signals tend to be really embodied too, what, you know, whether it’s conflict or excitement, basically everything might tell is how do I feel like even as a creator, as like a maker, as a writer, you know, like when I’m working on something, I’m writing, I’m writing, right.
I’m like, oh yeah, that’s kind of like, it’s interesting. It’s good. And then I’ll write a sentence and I’ll shake. And I’ll be like, oh hell. Like that’s, if I can do that once more in the next decade, like my life will be good. Um, you know, like there’s a, a really physical embodied thing that, that hits me when I just know something’s not just off, but also really off, like really connected.
Really. Right. But here’s my question. [00:28:00] So many of us, and I’m, I’m gonna get back to, ’cause I really wanna get into the details of like, how do we actually make these agreements? But I think this is really important because this is, how do we know that we are actually sort of like honoring them or getting to a place where, you know, like we’re good with them.
Um, I do feel like for so many people, like there’s an embodied element to it. Like their body gives them information that says, yeah, like we’re, we’re there, we’re closing in or we’re there like, we’re ready to, like we can close the books on this. We can move on. We’re good. And yet. So many of us have been through so much capital, T trauma, little t trauma experiences in our life where we have learned to disconnect from all of our embodied signals, from all the somatic things that actually would, would wanna speak to us and tell us how we feel.
Um, how do you deal with that? Like when you’re actually, when, when a lot of the signals that you’re looking for would come from your body, but you have, and maybe for good reasons, compartmentalize basically decided you’re living from the [00:29:00] head up, um, and you’re not getting them. Well, I’ll kick that over to you.
I think.
Will: Well, I would use myself as an example in what you’re talking about. I grew up in a very intellectual way. Um, I came to understand through therapy that I had retreated into my mind as a safe place to be, um, and not feeling the things that were there for me to feel. And, you know, as I was growing up and, you know, not, not to scare people away from this process that we’re talking about, but when you, if you’re like me and you’ve ignored your body and the signals of your body for a long time, when you start tuning into the body, I think this started happening for me in my.
Um, early thirties, uh, with a meditation teacher who was a very somatic oriented, uh, Buddhist meditation teacher. Uh, when you start tuning into your body for the first time, it, it has things to say to you that are not pleasant to hear because it’s [00:30:00] sort of like you’ve had a, a slave locked in the, you know, dungeon of your mind for a long time.
Um, but I would just encourage people that it’s, it’s very worth it to, to do that work because the, the synchronization between the body and the mind is a beautiful gift that helps you operate your life in a much more efficient, less frictiony kind of way. Uh, to, to develop that presence is, is really worthwhile.
And I think many people are growing up in situations, you know, like the one I grew up in where, and I think, you know, Krista’s too, is just a cultural thing of like, we’re very mental in our culture. Uh, we don’t tend to orient in the way that Krista described just a minute ago of like, okay, my body’s feeling something.
There must be intelligence there. You know, we, we, we tend to write it off or, uh, question it or even just disregard it.
Jonathan: Krista did. Did you have a similar sort of journey from the head into the body
Krista: Let [00:31:00] me think about that. I’m just kidding. I think, I think I did have that kind of journey. Yeah. It’s take,
Jonathan: for those Not that ain’t watching video here. She’s just like, dude, are you serious? The, the look, I’m telling you that.
Krista: I, I mean, Jonathan, I keep attempting to get more and more embodied every single day. So it’s, yes, it’s, it’s definitely been, it’s definitely been a journey. And one thing that I wanna say, uh, here in relationship to our agreements and how we do our partnership in relationship to what you’re talking about, small T trauma, big T trauma.
I mean, Will’s really the expert in all of that, in his background, in his profession. But here, what we really stand for, which I think is different from most couples, first of all, we, we believe that we co-create everything together. Our failures, our successes, that we, we both have a part.
In whatever our outcomes are. Also that we are standing for the healing of the younger wounded, we’ll call them parts of ourselves.
There’s different ways to talk about it, that, that has [00:32:00] experienced high levels of either trauma or different things in life that, that keep us being in limited perspectives or shrinking down or, you know, not coming to the table. That, that both of us are responsible for each other’s parts and the healing of those parts.
Usually as, and I think Will was talking about this in the very beginning of our conversation. Usually the narrative is, that’s yours to deal with. Go work on that, whether it’s on your cushion or with a therapist, and then come back here once you’re, you know, got your stuff together and then we will be able to move forward.
But here we’re actually really taking. Co-responsibility for our wounded parts to heal. And that’s I think, one of the powerhouses of our partnership because I can only heal so much of my by myself, whether it’s with a therapist or something else, but together we can heal so much more and so much more than becomes possible for me individually, but also us as a couple.
Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, that lands a lot. Let’s, let’s actually dive into the mechanics [00:33:00] of agreements, um, because, you know, it’s, it’s one thing to just say, sit down and write down your agreements with, you know, but let’s, let’s get specific here, right? If we talk about creating, um, a relationship agreement or a list of relationship agreements.
Let’s start with just like one, what is the, what’s the structure of a relationship agreement that actually works? Krista, you wanna start us off?
Krista: we have to both understand. What the agreement is like. It’s not just like, okay, it’s like if we say color blue, the color blue, we all separately think of a color, particular shade of blue, but we’re not actually talking about the shade of blue. We’re not actually talking about the same thing.
So we have to really understand what it is that we’re agreeing to and it has to be applicable in some way. Like we have to know, okay, this is, this is the moment that we can use that agreement. And there’s obviously questions that we could ask to help people be like, where do we even start about [00:34:00] what the content is?
But for it to be useful, I think those two things have to be in place. And will, there might be other things that you’re thinking of too.
Will: I think they have to be, uh, mostly equally meaningful to both parties, uh, for both people to buy into them. Um, enough. So I, I think there’s certain principles that I think work really well, um, like mutuality, uh, fairness, um, justice, um, as, as a foundation of how two people can feel fulfilled in something that they’re working on together, if it’s a relationship, business partnership, what have you.
Um, and I think both people are gonna get challenged in different ways, at different times by different agreements. So that’s, you know, we’re maybe, we went a little overboard. We have 24 relationship agreements, but having more than one, I think is useful for covering some of the, uh, the landscape of what can go, what can go wrong, and how you can get into, [00:35:00] uh, tough spots together.
Jonathan: Yeah, so if I wanna make sure I’m getting this right, it sounds like, okay, so one, they have to be explicit. Like you can’t just bat it around and assume that you both know what you’re talking about. Like, and probably a good way to do it is literally write it down or record it, record the audio, whatever it is, but actually like, memorialize it in some way.
Um, mutual, like, you both look at this and you, and you’re nodding along and saying, we understand what this is. We, our understanding is the same and we agree to it. Um, and that the language, the language really matters. Um, you know, be specific and not ambiguous. Is there more, or, or did I get anything off there?
Krista: I both committed to it and they can see that they can, they can see why it would be supportive to their partnership.
Jonathan: Let’s talk about some of your agreements and kind of break them down a little bit and see how they fall into this. Um, one of yours, um, from what I understand, and by the way, everyone sort of like joining us, we’re, um, [00:36:00] um, we’re, we will share a link to, uh, a downloadable A PDF where, um, I forgot what you guys call, it’s like the 10 top 10 agreements or something like that.
Um, where, um, you can learn more and also learn more about. Um, but so one agreement, and tell me if I’m getting this right, is we agreed to gamble everything for love.
Krista: Oh, that’s such a good one.
Jonathan: Okay? Walk me through this. Um, Krista start out.
Krista: Okay, so I love that you asked this question because when Will and I realized that we are going to pursue a relationship together, we knew that if we didn’t gamble everything for love, that. We didn’t, we wouldn’t create the kind of partnership we wanted. So this was the very first agreement that we made.
And to us, it meant that we were gonna put it all on the table. We were gonna, you know, address the rubs. We were gonna bring all of ourselves forward, all the parts of us that, even the ones that we hold [00:37:00] back a little bit, we’re gonna put it on the table to see what kind of partnership is actually here. So it includes taking a lot of risks, a lot of, and being a lot of vulnerabilities, bringing them, them forward
will, what else would you add to that?
Will: Well, I think it, it’s a really helpful antidote for us personally because we come from. I mean, I come from the South, Krista’s, Midwestern. We, we come from this sort of buttoned up, uh, culture where you maybe would suppress or hold back or delete something that you really, really, really want, but you think it might irritate the other person or make them uncomfortable.
Um, like investing in a coaching program that’s really expensive, that’s gonna take me or Krista to the next level of our career expression, for example. Or, um, I really want that, uh, new bike or something, but it’s really expensive [00:38:00] and like, what’s Krista gonna think about that? Or so on.
Krista: or like, I really want you to do something differently.
Will: Yes.
Krista: You know, that feels very vulnerable. Like, I really want you to show up for me in a different way. Or, I really was impacted by the thing that you did and here’s how he’s impacted and can we talk about that? Those kinds of things, which we, we, I would say we really practice that today, and if we’re not reviewing our agreements though, we might get a little bit astray, but we come back to them.
Jonathan: so when you say we agree to gamble everything for love, the, the everything in that sentence sounds like it’s not, we’re not talking about, you know, like. A, a monetary value here. Although it, it may be like in, in part, you know, like if you’re investing in something [00:40:00] together, but it’s really like everything is, it’s emotional stakes.
Like if I’m, if I’m concerned, if I’m feeling really vulnerable, if I’m upset, you know, I, I’m gonna put that on the, I, I agree to, to take, to bring that to the relationship. I agree to not just sit on it, but to actually surface it and let’s deal with it. Like I’m going to gamble, being uncomfortable, being rejected, being like, like being in an argument where I just really don’t want to be arguing, um, being wrong in the name of preserving this love that we have.
Does that, is that right?
Krista: you should, you should write, you should write the next top 10 relationship agreements for us. ’cause that was amazing. Yes.
Will: Being willing to be messy and to show, uh, very much like you said, Jonathan, about being wrong, like to, to, to show a neurotic, crazy incorrect perception. You know, Krista, I have a story that you’re [00:41:00] judging that crap out me right now. That’s what I see on your face, is that, is that true? You know? And then it, it’s like, well, yeah, it is true or it’s not,
Krista: It’s usually not
Will: usually not.
Krista: usually not what we’re thinking about our partners and our faces and there’s a whole line of work around that, but yeah.
Jonathan: So it’s really about surfacing assumptions too. Um, and risking being wrong about your assumptions and, but also, also risking then resolution. It’s like, oh wow. Like Krista, I thought like you were totally judging me. Um, and I’m feeling really a little upset and angry about it. And, and then you’re like, dude, I was literally thinking about what I’m buying.
Like when I go to this like place
Krista: That’s usually the case.
Jonathan: right. You know, it’s like what I’m, what, what, what I’m gonna do with my friends, like down the road, you like, um, I, it’s those unspoken things, right? That’s so often relationships. It’s, it’s, it’s what’s not said. I think that gets us so [00:42:00] much more in trouble than what’s actually said.
Will: It’s so true.
Krista: absolutely. And if we’re not saying them, we don’t understand what our capacity, our partnership has, like we’re not actually leaning in to see what’s available to us in our connection.
Jonathan: I think it was Krista who mentioned this earlier. Um, but one of your agreements also is we agreed to repair ruptures abundantly and stay in conversation. Um, that’s fancy language was actually mean.
Krista: Yeah. Will do you wanna, do you wanna take a stab at that?
Will: well, so it’s a common phenomenon I probably, almost anyone can relate to is you’re in an argument with someone you care about and they, uh, raise their hand or say something sharp and walk away, and there’s no completion of that experience. Um, maybe they come back in the room 10 minutes later and everyone’s acting like nothing happened or that it, the moment is over, it’s passed, and the person who might be tracking that or feeling that the moment [00:43:00] hasn’t passed and there’s something left to do, uh, might not feel comfortable bringing it up.
Right. So abundant repair is when. As we were talking about earlier, our litmus test is that our bodies are relaxed and wanna be with each other. Um, there’s no more sense of, um, concern or uh, edge. It takes time sometimes to get to the abundant repair. Um, but we do have an efficient strategy that we use.
And Krista, do you wanna tell Jonathan about it?
I’m thinking about the one where one of us is really upset and the other one points to the couch.
Krista: Couch time. Yeah. So this is, this is something that really helps co-regulate each other. So that means basically like I’m not going off on my own and leaving the conversation to self-regulate myself until I maybe feel ready for the conversation. Or maybe I’m not even gonna go back into the conversation.
But if one [00:44:00] of us point to the couch, that means that usually there’s one of us who’s pretty activated and not regulated, not centered. We’re pretty disrupted. And so the dysregulated person will lay on the couch on their back, and the less dysregulated person will lay on top of them and we’ll just breathe and breathe together until there’s some sort of somatic relief in the system.
And usually, you know, it happens after 30 seconds or a minute, and then we can go back into the content. But really staying inside of the conversation is, is the big. Point of, of this agreement.
Jonathan: Okay. Does that really work? Because I’m just picturing, I’m picturing one really pissed off person lying down on a couch, facing up the other one lying down on top of them and the person on the bottom just being like, now I’m even more bothered because you just lie here and like go into my own space and relax.
But you’re saying like this is actually a thing that legitimately works.
Krista: [00:45:00] Legitimately there’s, there’s a couple things. Will, you probably know the science better, but for me it’s like the pressure of will. I’m, let’s say I am furious and he points to the couch and I’m even like, heck no, I’m not gonna the couch. But because we have this practice, I know that it works. And there’s a part of me that actually was like, okay, fine. When I feel his body on me, there’s the weight and I start to, I, my body starts to relax. When I feel our chests breathing together. There’s probably something related to. Mother, I’m guessing. Well, you might know, but like there’s something that actually happens where if I’m willing and just settle down, I, my nervous system will literally calm down.
And it might, again, it might take a minute, but, but it does absolutely. At least for us, a hundred percent success rate, like it’s never failed for us.
Will: Well, I think there are a number of things going on. You know, there’s the hormone oxytocin, the social connection hormone that, uh, gets [00:46:00] activated when an infant and a mother are cuddling and there’s breastfeeding going on and so on. There’s, I think that when two mammals who are in the same family are touching each other, that’s happening.
There’s also, um, interesting electrophysiology happening around heart rate variability and the autonomic nervous system and the social engagement system of the parasympathetic part of the, you know, the vagal nerve. So there, there’s a lot happening that, um, tips the scale away from, you know. Overdrive of fight or flight system toward more rest and digest.
And it, it does seem to be more efficient than talking about things because when you’re very activated, at least when I’m very activated, I often think, say things that I regret later. But it’s better for me not to allow my vocal cords to be worked by a younger part of me that’s really [00:47:00] furious, uh, at least in the heat of the moment.
Jonathan: Yeah, I mean what’s interesting to me here also is that, so we started out with this single agreement, we, we agree to repair ruptures abundantly and stay in the conversation. Right? Okay. So you agree to that? But then you get to a point where like there’s a really major rupture. You know, there’s, it’s a big fierce argument.
And then, so you don’t just leave it at the agreement. You’re like, okay, so for us to honor this agreement, we need tools and strategies and maybe tools and strategies that we actually don’t have at the time we’re making the agreement. So then, then part of what you’re agreeing to here is also saying, if we don’t have those in order for us to, then we need to actually get them.
We need to, we need to create them, we need to study them. We need to learn them. That’s part of what we’re talking about here. It’s not just saying, we’re gonna write down this agreement and try, try and honor it. It’s like we’re gonna write down this agreement because it matters to us. It lets us uphold the vision of the relationship [00:48:00] that we want, that it lets us create the union and the impact that we wanna have, you know, within the relationship and outside of it.
And. But maybe at the same time, we’ve got some of the skills needed to actually honor it, you know? But this matters so much to us that this is going to actually motivate us now to actually go and develop the skills and the strategies so that we can honor this. ’cause it means a lot to me. So it’s almost like it tells you, um, where to spend your energy and what to invest in also.
Krista: That’s so well articulated. And when and when we need it, and even when we’re just trying to stay optimized as a couple, but also when we really need it, we’ll bring in, we’ll bring in support if we can’t do it ourselves, which is another way of adding to our toolkit. Our toolkit,
Jonathan: Yeah. So you shared that you have 24, 25 agreements between you.
Krista: we have 24. We made it 25th about a year ago, but we can’t remember what it is, so [00:49:00] we’ll say we, we are just gonna stick with 24.
Jonathan: The 25th agreement is actually to write down an all future agreement somewhere. We both remember, um, thinking back over, nine years together, seven years. Um, in marriage of those agreements. Um, do you have a sense for what the single hardest one has been to consistently honor? Krista is nodding. What do you got?
Krista: Yeah, will, will actually said it before, which I was surprised you brought that one, but that was great. Which is, which is the, the agreement to see each other with fresh eyes every day because of how hard it is to realize that every time we go away from each other, something’s happened to us.
We have new experiences. If we’re lucky, we have new insights about ourself or we, you know, move the needle in our own level of self-development. And when we come back together, we’re slightly a different person. And when we commit to seeing with each other, with fresh eyes every day, we’re committing to the aliveness and the [00:50:00] generativity that actually we embody as human beings.
And we’re not, like, I’m not looking at Will and be like, oh, here we go again. Here’s Will I already know who he is. I already know what he’s gonna say. But it requires that I bring forward something that my brain isn’t, you know, maybe habitually used to, which is seeing will as a evolving, developing human being, being every minute of his life, even if he’s comfortable and, you know, not going after the growth mentality of all the time, but he is, he’s a different person. So that I think for both of us, will is, is the hardest agreement that we have.
Will: it, it runs counter to what our brain wants to do in terms of conserving energy. Uh, when we’ve been around a person for a while, we tend to automatically assume the opposite of what Krista was describing. You know that, okay, here’s the, I know this person, um, there was, there was a rabbi, I can’t remember which rabbi this, I’m not Jewish, [00:51:00] but there was a rabbi who said, the worst thing you can say about a person is I know that guy. Uh, which is a similar message of what we’re talking about. Um, how do we bring an elevated level of curiosity to every moment with each other? And that was something I, I learned from Krista for the first time is that curiosity is a, a discipline and a practice. It’s not something that just happened spontaneously, um, in my life prior to Krista, I thought, well, that’s just something that I either have curiosity about this situation or I don’t, and it’s not my responsibility to stay in touch with curiosity.
Jonathan: that really lands so powerfully with me for, you know, both of you. This notion of, especially the longer you are, you’re in a relationship with somebody, the more you’ve been through, the more you’ve had like versions of the same conversation. You just start to assume I know this person. I know your tells, I know your values, I know your beliefs.
I [00:52:00] know everything about you. I know what you’re thinking right now, what you’re feeling and how you’re going to respond. And you just assume like, you know, the next word outta a person’s mouth. And, uh, it is just so often wrong, you know? And it leads to so much friction, so much conflict that doesn’t
Krista: And I totally, and as somebody for both of us, I think Will and I both value really being seen and really being known by our partner, and, and that gets completely missed when we’re operating from, I already know you.
Jonathan: and it, and it’s also a weird thing to say, um, but you don’t know me in a way. It’s unsettling. You know, um, because it’s like if, if, if we’re both constantly in the process of growth and change and evolution, um, on the one hand we want certain things to always be the same because we feel like that’s the bedrock of a relationship.
We’re concerned that if we’re constantly growing and changing, if the puzzle piece is individually are [00:53:00] changing shape over time, that, you know, seven years, 10 years from now, if they still fit the way they did in the beginning, um, that’s not entirely within our control. And that creates a lot of fear, I think to a certain extent. We don’t want the other person to be different, but then when they show up the same way in a way that bugs you, you, you, like, you, you punish them for it. So it’s like a cat Total, total catch 22.
Will: We, we want them to be different only in the ways that we want them to be different. We, we, we,
Jonathan: Only the way that somehow benefits us in exactly the way we wanna be benefit. Yeah.
Krista: Yeah.
Jonathan: So somebody who’s is kind of joining us and saying, this sounds really interesting. Um, I’m open to the idea of relationship agreements. Where do I start? What would you say to them?
Krista: My advice would be to start where the two of you, assuming you’re in a partnership, where the two of you tend to have breakdowns and or continued, continued loops where you get stuck and can’t quite get out of where [00:54:00] you’re getting stuck and, and if you really look to see, okay, what am I doing in that moment?
What are you doing in that moment? What do we wanna be doing in that moment? Then you can start to really look to see, okay, what might the agreement need to be or what do we want it to be in order to make it through those stuck areas? That would be one, one area.
Will: I think you could also ask the question in addition to what Krista said, of what is the, what are we up to as a couple? Uh, what are, what are we committed to? What are we here to do together? Why are we together? And, uh, some couples get together every year and ask themselves that question with fresh eyes, you know, and I think that’s a beautiful practice.
Jonathan: it’s interesting that you said some people will do it on a regular basis. Um, because I’m also thinking, you know, the way that you might step into this would be very different if it was a brand new relationship versus heading towards some major commitment versus [00:55:00] a long time relationship.
But maybe. Going through a major change, like kids leaving the house or something like that. It’s like, oh wait a minute. We’ve had these like other beings in the home with us for 18, 20 years and it’s been a blessing and incredible and also chaos and also a buffer. And now that’s not there anymore. Like who are we?
What do we stand for? Like what is our relationship? And then what are the agreements that we might sit down and make together to support this? And also probably even the question like, are we on the same page with the fundamentals about like what this relationship is about? Um, and you know, on the one hand it sounds like potentially really hard conversations, but at the same time, not having them isn’t really in service of anything.
Um, good,
Krista: Yeah, I think that’s so well said.
Will: Yeah.
it’s sort of this balance. Um, I really appreciate what you said a few minutes ago, Jonathan, about how scary it is to imagine that the [00:56:00] person coming home from their workday is a different person from the one who left in the morning. And how, um, much fear. We have as human beings of change and of of, of not knowing what’s going on.
Uh, so that, I think there’s a balance of, of feeling that security and having a, uh, a foundation under our feet. Um, but also feeling the challenge slash uh, adventure of accepting that life is full of those changes that are always happening to us all the time. And developing a way to, to meet those challenges, um, as joyfully and, um, sovereignly, if that’s an adverb as possible, you know?
Jonathan: Yeah, there, there’s, um, there’s an energy in me that’s always kind of said stasis is death, um, individually, and I would imagine to a certain extent, I, I share that same belief when it comes to the relationships that matter [00:57:00] most to me. Um, I don’t know whether that’s right or wrong, I just know for me, it’s, it’s something that is something I’ve always believed and, and I’ve always felt, and maybe that’ll change, maybe that changes for me over time too, maybe seasons of my life that changes to a certain extent also, um, where just stability and comfort becomes actually something that’s much important to me.
I like, I’ll hold the space for that. But, um, yeah, it’s, it’s, it is interesting the way that we all dance individually with this notion of, you know, security, um, wa wanting the security and the stability. Um, and at the same time wanting everything that growth and evolution and change also gives to us. Um, I don’t think there’s any one right answer, but it’s a question that I constantly ask.
It feels a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation. In this Container of Good Life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? So Krista, I’ll ask that of you first.
Krista: For me to live a good life is to really be so [00:58:00] deeply in contact with what’s moving through me so that I can actually share that with others and support others and sharing with me. And I think that for me, the good life is really having deep, rich connections with the being with the beings around us. It brings me a lot of joy and goodness.
Will: For me, uh, I, I’m living my best life when I’m chasing ambitious goals of having impact in the world, while at the same time balancing those activities with deep connection with myself and the people around me.
Jonathan: Mm, thank you both.
Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Dr. Deepika Chopra about toxic positivity and how to be optimistic without tipping into delusion, distraction, or even harm.
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This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, [00:59:00] editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Kris Carter crafted our theme music, and of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts.
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