Ever felt stuck in a cycle of seeing yourself as a victim, even when you know there might be another way? In this illuminating conversation with Columbia University professor Scott Barry Kaufman, one of the world’s most cited researchers on intelligence, creativity, and human potential, we explore the transformative space between experiencing victimhood and adopting a victim mindset.
As director of the Center for Human Potential and founder of Self-Actualization Coaching, Scott shares insights from his latest book, “Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential.” He reveals practical strategies for transforming feelings of helplessness into genuine empowerment, introducing a fascinating reframe of boredom as a state of infinite possibility rather than limitation.
You’ll learn why lowering your expectations about life might actually lead to greater joy, and discover how changing a single word in your self-talk can dramatically alter your relationship with daily challenges. This conversation offers fresh perspectives on self-esteem, personal growth, and the surprising power of gratefulness. Whether you’re navigating difficult circumstances or simply seeking to build greater resilience, Scott’s research-backed insights and compassionate approach provide a clear path forward toward realizing your full potential.
You can find Scott at: Website | Instagram | Episode Transcript
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Episode Transcript:
Scott Barry Kauffman ACAST.wav
Jonathan Fields: [00:00:00] So have you ever had that moment where you just kind of feel like the world, or maybe in one person or community was kind of conspiring against you, or holding you back, or keeping you stuck or trapped or small, kind of like you’re a victim without a whole lot of power to change things. If so, you are not alone. But sometimes there is a meaningful difference between feeling trapped or beaten down and the actual facts of our experience. And that’s at the heart of today’s conversation about the surprising difference between being a victim and living with what psychology now calls a victim mindset, and what we can do about it. Think about those moments when you catch yourself feeling like the world is against you, like just every circumstance is a conspiracy to hold you back. What if that feeling itself could become a signal not of hopelessness, but of an opportunity to transform your entire relationship with life’s challenges? And this is not also saying put your head in the sand and ignore the reality of circumstance. And what if boredom of all things could be a gateway to unlimited possibility. Along the way. So my guest today is Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, a professor at Columbia University and one of the world’s most cited researchers on intelligence, creativity, and human potential. As director of the center for Human Potential and founder of Self-actualization Coaching, Scott has dedicated his career to understanding how we can realize our fullest potential. In his latest book, Rise Above Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential, he offers a really fresh perspective on moving from victimhood to empowerment. One of the things that really fascinated me in our conversation was Scott’s surprising take on boredom as a state of infinite possibility rather than limitation. We explore how changing just one word, and how you talk to yourself can dramatically shift your entire experience of daily challenges, and you’re going to want to hear his perspective on why lowering your expectations about life might actually be a key to finding greater joy. So excited to share this provocative conversation with you. I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
Jonathan Fields: [00:02:03] Scott barry Kaufman. Scott, SBK, it’s good to be hanging out with you again. It’s been a couple of years since we sat down with mics in front of us. You’ve been focusing on something that I think so many people are feeling in some way these days. Um, I almost don’t know somebody that hasn’t dropped into this state of mind. It’s this notion of feeling like you’re a victim. Yeah. Um, and really, we’re going to drop in and explore that, um, in a lot of different ways. But I want to make a distinction because you teased out this distinction in the beginning, and it’s the difference between victim mindset and being a victim. Um, tease this out for me a little bit.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:02:41] Yeah. I think that, um, it’s very important, first of all, to distinguish between these things. Um, having been, uh, the recipient of a terrible, uh, event, um, it can be anything. Abuse and childhood. It can be going through a pandemic. I think we kind of went through a collective, uh, situation there where we’re all victims, for sure, of something that was out of out of our control. But the victim mindset is when you, um, stay there perpetually and you blame all your current problems on that one thing that happened to you, and you stop taking responsibility. And even you might forget that you have agency left, and you stop trying to be productive and hopeful. Um, it can lead to a very dark place. It can lead to a real sense of helplessness, and we can forget the resiliency that we actually have within us.
Jonathan Fields: [00:03:35] So does a victim mindset always get precipitated by actually being a victim?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:03:42] No. It’s interesting because I covered different types in my book. Um, it’s possible to have not been. It’s possible there to play play the victim. That’s a thing people do that. People do that. People play the victim to get attention, to get social status, get rewards. I tend to have less empathy for those people than I do for those who, um, have really had truly had horrible things happen to them. And, um, the only thing they know how to cope is by having a victim mindset. And I and I want to show compassionately, I want to show people that it’s not their only option to cope.
Jonathan Fields: [00:04:13] Yeah. I mean, I think that word compassion is really important in this conversation too, because so often, you know, like somebody that maybe they are a victim, maybe they aren’t an actual victim, but somehow they end up in this place where they feel like the world is against me. Like, yeah, everything’s conspiring against me. And we tend to look at that person. And if we can’t point to something objectively that put them there, or maybe it was like a decade ago, like there’s this tendency to sort of like, even if you don’t verbalize or say this to the person to kind of be like, seriously still? Yeah, like like, can’t you get and there’s like, there’s a level of shame and blame that we tend to to sort of like offer into.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:04:51] The they know it. They feel it. They’re not they don’t like it themselves. I mean, every time they hear themselves saying, you know, uh, in conversation, oh, sorry, I can’t go into Starbucks. My trauma when I was three. And like, they know it in their own bones. We don’t need to, like, doubly shame them. They already feel the sense of shame, and they want an escape. I mean, so many of these individuals feel stuck and imprisoned in their past. Irving Yalom has this wonderful quote. Sooner or later you have to give up all hope for a better past. Mhm.
Jonathan Fields: [00:05:19] Yeah. I love that quote. Um, how do we know if we’re in this if we’re in it. Yeah. Some somebody listening to this and maybe they’re on the other side where like all these people like oh yeah they’re, they’re that person or maybe somebody listening to this and they’re like, huh? How do I know if I’m actually like walking around carrying a victim mindset myself?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:05:40] Well, really, my book is about it’s funny, I’m trying to get the subtitle changed, uh, for the reprint edition. Really? My book is about the science of self-empowerment, right? And a lot of the interviews really do focus on the the victimhood part. But really what I wrote is a book about how to harness the most optimal mindset for your own success, no matter what you’ve been through in your life. Um, so yes, it is about overcoming a victim mindset, but I wouldn’t. I don’t want to get so hung up on diagnosing you and figuring out, like, precisely whether or not you have the victim mindset. Look, you know, you have the victim. You know that you’re stuck. If you feel stuck in life, you know you’re stuck, right? You know, and, um, there’s a whole science. Yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:06:23] Just to push back a little. Is that true?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:06:26] Like, if.
Jonathan Fields: [00:06:26] You.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:06:26] Don’t.
Jonathan Fields: [00:06:26] Know that, you really. You really do know. I mean, if do you walk around because. Do you walk around? And is there a voice inside of everyone who’s experiencing this, like where they feel like the world is against them, where they’re like, they really know it’s not against him. It’s like if I’m the the single unifying factor in all these different circumstances, or are there folks who walk around and legitimately they’re like, I have like, I really do feel like the world is conspiring against me at every place in my life, and I have no idea why. And like, it’s not me.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:06:56] It’s all too easy to slip into that way of thinking, which is I think it’s a very human thing. And I want to argue that we all fall prey to it every now and then. Um, even throughout the course of our day, we might, you know, um, find we’re looking for someone to curse. Curse the gods. Curse the person in front of us, the car in front of us, whatever.
Jonathan Fields: [00:07:14] If you’re in New York.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:07:15] Everyone in New York, everyone’s cursing each other, and it’s it’s very it’s a very human thing. I wanted to this book to not be about like, um, you’re just just about your ex-boyfriend, or it’s just about your mother. It’s about, um, our potential to kind of hold ourselves back, um, also through our own being a victim to ourselves. So you know that you’re harnessing this mindset, um, when you a you take your emotions way too seriously and you can become a victim to your emotions. I talk about, you know, you identify with them. Um, you feel a little anxiety and then you think, oh, I’m an anxious person, and that’s holding you back. You’re becoming you’re you’re victimizing yourself. Cognitive distortions as well. They’re a whole a whole bunch of ways in which the way that we, um, interpret situations.
Jonathan Fields: [00:08:02] So give me an example of cognitive distortion.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:08:05] One big one associated with the victim mindset is seeing malevolent intent in ambiguous stimuli, which is a nerdy ass way. A nerdy ass way. What is that like the phrase nerdy ass? So nerdy ass way of saying that, um, you, um, you assume the worst about people. Um, even in situations where you have no information one way or the other, you know? And I think we do that a lot. You know, if, like, we smile at someone, they don’t smile back at us. Let’s say they just have a neutral facial expression. We just that’s an act of aggression. Um, um, comedians feel that a lot when they’re on stage. Like, even if there’s just neutral facial expressions, they feel like that’s personal, right?
Jonathan Fields: [00:08:47] It’s like the audience is against me.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:08:48] Yeah. The audience. But it’s very easy to kind of fall prey to and personalize things in our daily life. Constantly. If someone doesn’t text us back when we want to, you know, we want to have some semblance of control, but we can’t really have control over other humans or, um, or, uh, you know, whether or not someone’s interested in us, whether or not, you know, there are a lot of things that it’s very easy to fall into that victim mindset. Right? But it’s a lot harder but more rewarding to not fall into that mindset and to sort of even feel a sense of empowerment over it not affecting you so much at a personal level, and being able to handle rejection and being able to flex those muscles of resiliency where you know when it’s 180 degree day and you’re stuck in traffic, traffic, you don’t curse the gods, but you think of what you’re grateful for in your life that’s going well. I mean, there are so many things that are much more empowering than.
Jonathan Fields: [00:09:45] Yeah, and I do want to I want to get into the empowerment side of this. Sure. But I do want to linger on this a little bit more also because I’m trying to really understand the mindset. Um, and, and also, I want folks joining us to understand that, um, this is one of those there. But for God’s grace go I and I will be that person at some point, and I may be in and out of it on a regular basis. Um, rather than saying, I mean, yeah, is is having a victim mindset a dysfunction?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:10:14] Um, I think that it can lead to dysfunction in our lives. And that’s, um, that’s where I see it, um, often heading, um, not in and of itself. In fact, someone asked me a really interesting question the other day. She said, when is it good to have a victim mindset? And I was like, okay, you know what? I like the way you think about this. Um, it’s not maybe always bad. Um, but I think that on net, compared to what I call an empowerment mindset. It often leads to a sense of helplessness. It leads to a sense of a lack of agency. It could give us, in a false sense of harmony in the moment. It could make us feel like we’re getting attention that we desperately crave. But it’s not authentic connection. It’s not long lasting connection. Um, people tend to I really believe in the goodness of humans. I think that, um, when someone signals victimhood, I think that most humans really care about that, and they really want to jump in and help, you.
Jonathan Fields: [00:11:13] Know, that impulse to sort of like like the compassionate impulse.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:11:16] Yes. But also yes. And I also think that humans, at the end of the day, want to be seen for something deeper than just their victimhood. Does that make sense?
Jonathan Fields: [00:11:26] Yeah. No, it totally does. I mean, then, like, what does the victim mindset want?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:11:33] Um, yeah, I think I think that attention is a big one. Yeah. Um, and I think and and help, help, you know, sometimes when people have been through terrible things, it’s so natural to want to signal, you know, I need resources, I need help, and in a lot of ways, um, that’s a beautiful thing. The victim mindset I make very clear as a generalized mindset. So it’s not about a specific event that you try to get help for, right? You know, it’s a it’s a just a total mentality that we can snap into where we suddenly see we get paranoid. We kind of see the world as against us. Um, it can happen if we are not reaching our goals, um, how we want to, um, it can, we can we can feel it, uh, in an instant going on Instagram and you’re scrolling and let’s say, you see, like, you know, Andrew Huberman or someone doing better than you and you’re like, oh, God damn, Andrew Huberman, do you know what I mean? And then you start to get a victim mindset. Uh, I don’t know where that example came from, but, uh.
Jonathan Fields: [00:12:30] Two podcasts are sitting, talking.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:12:32] Right. But do you know what I mean? Like, it’s so much healthier to two to catch yourself mindfully going into that headspace and not spiral downward, but say, huh, okay, I can see where this is going. And instead I’m going to focus my day on what makes me unique, what gives, what my you-i’ve most unique center of being is. You know, what is what is it within? What’s my unique value proposition in the world? You know, what can I do? Um, even in the smallest way, you know, even just, like, call my mom and see how she’s doing today. Like, to help me appreciate again that I’m still alive. The people I love are alive. There’s just so many things to get out of that it doesn’t lead down the best pathway. Does that make sense?
Jonathan Fields: [00:13:13] Yeah. I mean, so it’s really interesting, right. Because the way you’re describing it is like and tell me if this if this makes sense to you. Sure. That within the experience of of being a victim or feeling like you were a victim, whether objectively you are or not, that there is a certain energy. Yeah, to that feeling. And we can use that energy to either deepen into a place of stuckness or almost like activation energy. To somehow act in a more constructive way. Yeah, I.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:13:39] Like.
Jonathan Fields: [00:13:39] That. Bring us out of it. Does that make sense?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:13:41] Yeah, absolutely. And I think being in touch with these different energies through a regular mindfulness practice and, um, and play and non-judgmentally playing around with the different energies. I love, love doing that. I just took a 21 day course by my friend Corey Mosqueira, who.
Jonathan Fields: [00:13:58] I.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:13:58] Love, I can’t talk more positively about, and I just took a 21. I took all his classes I like.
Jonathan Fields: [00:14:04] He’s like a walking hug with wisdom.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:14:05] I agree, he’s one of the most wise individuals I’ve ever known, and I and I just took this 21 day course on overcoming your, um, compulsions and your addictions and what I really like about his approach, and it’s one that I would like to say is my approach too, is I believe in unconditional positive regard, which is Carl Rogers, you know, letting people, um, experience things as valid non-judgmentally and kind of figure out for themselves what works and what doesn’t work. Um, but playing around with different energies is really beneficial. So I practiced playing around with like getting into like some things that I feel like I’m afraid I might be having compulsions and kind of seeing how that feels, and it feels much more restricted, you know, it feels much more, um, like my options are limited. But then I started playing around in the space of embracing boredom and started to reframe boredom as actually the greatest source of possibility. You know, starting to love boredom. When you’re in the state of boredom, you’re actually in a greater state of possibility than when you’re addicted in your addicted state. And that was a huge that was a huge insight for me. Um, but yeah, I.
Jonathan Fields: [00:15:10] Don’t ask you about that because that’s what you just said is like mind.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:15:13] Blowing, actually mind blowing.
Jonathan Fields: [00:15:15] That a little bit more.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:15:16] Yeah. Um, when you’re in this, uh, compulsive or an addictive state, all your options actually narrow to your system only wanting to reach a very, very narrow goal. Okay. Um. And you suddenly don’t care about anything else in this world. And that’s not the state of pure possibility, pure bliss, inner peace. Wanting something so desperately that you can’t bear taking your attention away from it is not the path to inner peace.
Jonathan Fields: [00:15:53] Yeah. And also, like you said, it narrows the field so much that like, possibilities off the table. Yeah. If there’s one thing, one focus, that’s one choice.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:16:01] That’s the only thing that you must have.
Jonathan Fields: [00:16:02] Right. So. But what’s so interesting there is that, like, if you said to somebody, what’s the opposite of that, I doubt many people would say boredom.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:16:10] Right, right. They might say aliveness or excitement.
Jonathan Fields: [00:16:13] Right. Which is more than that. Like the the next step after boredom.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:16:18] It’s a great point. Um, you know. Corey has this example of his of his girlfriend or his wife, who’s now his wife, um, walking past a bakery. And his wife, uh, is Brianna. Her name is Brianna. Uh, it was like, you know what, Corey? Let’s go in the bakery and not buy anything, but let’s smell everything. And in a way, that’s boredom. That’s like, oh, that sounds boring. But the more you can kind of live in that space of. Hmm. I wonder what that would taste. Sometimes that’s more exciting ultimately, than the feeling you have eating the big donut and all the consequences that come from that afterwards. Sometimes you can actually just if you just reframe the situation and reframe what you would typically consider boredom into something else. Because I’m reframing boredom. Boredom is getting more excited. More boredom itself is getting more exciting now that I’m reframing it.
Jonathan Fields: [00:17:15] Yeah. So reframing it as a space where there is no clear direction, there’s only possibility.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:17:23] There’s no compulsion, right? You know what? I could go in that direction, but I also could go in that direction. I’d be equally okay going in that direction. I’d be okay if that direction I didn’t go in that direction, I’d be okay with that. Um, I mean, that’s a sense of, you know, like, okay, it’s boring, you know? Okay. I’m not jumping into anything, you know? Um, but there is a kind of peace that comes along with that that I think is underestimated.
Jonathan Fields: [00:17:45] Yeah. And a peace that we have all but annihilated from our lives was sort of like digital distraction. It’s sort of like the minute we hear, like there’s even, like a hint of boredom. It’s like, what can I reach to sort of like. And we can reach for something all the time, like 24 over seven now.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:17:59] 24 over seven.
Jonathan Fields: [00:18:00] I mean, but it’s a really interesting sort of hypothesis to say that by removing boredom from our experience, by basically saying every time you’re online, every time you’re at a stoplight, every time you’re in the bathroom, like there’s something right there where you’re immediately distracting yourself. We’re not just we’re not just sort of like treating the anxiety of the moment, but we’re actually doing something which is taking out of us, taking us out of a state that would open the door to unlimited possibilities.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:18:29] Yes. And I love, yes, ending things. So. And, um, we’ve become so used to the feeling of anxiety that we treat the absence of anxiety as boredom. But it’s not actually boredom. Like, if you actually think about it, um, it’s peace. And we’re so uncomfortable with peace and and if and I think really kind of changing its game changing if you can shift your relationship to, to the feeling of peace and and not conflate it with boredom, you know, but, um, now when I have a moment where there’s not a lot of chaos going on around me, I take a deep breath and I’m like, oh, this is good. Like, no, I like this. This is what I actually want. And, um, I don’t know. I think it’s a pretty radical for a lot of people who maybe like me, you know, have a history of being workaholics. You know, it’s it’s a it’s a kind of a not kind of it is a better place to live.
Jonathan Fields: [00:19:23] Yeah, and it’s a place that is not really centered or valued.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:19:28] It’s not valued. It’s not.
Jonathan Fields: [00:19:30] It’s like if you’re bored, do something. Yeah. You know, like. Or how could you be bored with so much to do? Um, but, uh, you know, like, it really is that. I mean, how would you distinguish between something like boredom and meditation? Mhm.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:19:43] Meditation for a lot of people is boring. And I think that they don’t realize that’s the point. They’re like oh this is, this is boring. I can’t do this. And you actually it’s kind of in a way it’s a practice to get comfortable with boredom. It’s like you’re literally building your boredom muscles, your tolerance of boredom muscles, so you can have greater flexibility to move in any direction you want. Ultimately, meditation gives you freedom, you know? Um, but it may not seem that way. You know, when you’re just sitting there and like you’re thinking all these thoughts are in your head like, oh my God, I could do this, this, this and this right now, as opposed to sitting down and just thinking about it. Yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:20:22] No, that makes a lot of sense. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. I do want to wrap the conversation around the victim mindset and some of the empowerment exploration, too. There are a couple of other things that you talk about in this context. One is the notion of self-esteem, which is this loaded word in conversation these days. Talk to me about this a bit.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:20:45] Yeah. I don’t think it’s always such a bad thing to have low self-esteem. That’s one thing I talk about in the book is the benefits of low self-esteem. So low self-esteem is just how you’re how you regard yourself. Um, and it’s different than narcissism. Um. Uh, well, narcissism is is, I guess, a way of regarding yourself, but in a way that is superior to others. High self-esteem is one where you just feel worthy. You know, I regard myself as worthy. I regard myself as competent. Worthy and competent are the two main aspects of of self-esteem. And usually our self-esteem takes a hit when either we a social situation happens where we don’t feel as worthy in life or we don’t reach our goals, and then our confidence takes a hit. It’s usually one of those two things, and our self-esteem takes a hit. But as I talk about in that chapter, there are benefits of feeling bad about yourself. We don’t.
Jonathan Fields: [00:21:34] It’s very counterintuitive.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:21:36] It’s so counter-intuitive. But I would say if people get the reverse, is it always good to feel good about yourself? I think most people like actually, no, that’s the same thing I’m saying, just in the other direction. But mathematically they equal the same thing. Um, but, um, you want to protect yourself like a fort at all times, where when you legitimately aren’t reaching your goals, you’re legitimately hurting someone’s feelings. You do all you can to restore that feeling of feeling good about yourself. Is that what you’re solving for, or are you solving for, um, making an impact on the world, for finding the meaning out of the situation, for maybe correcting a wrong you made. You know, a lot of people with this incessant need to be seen in a positive light, um, can’t bear the thought of feeling bad about themselves, and that means more to them than making other people feel bad. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:22:33] I mean, there is such a social context around all of this also. I remember years ago doing research on, um, the Ellsberg paradox, where you basically, you know, there are so many versions of it, you know it. Well, like for those who’ve never heard of it, it’s effectively a scenario where you have to make a decision and you assume that there are significant stakes and you don’t have enough information. And, um, you know, like, and I’ve seen studies that actually fMRI studies that show that the amygdala in the brain lights up. So the fear centers really come alive when you sort of like, you have to make decisions that tilts you towards uncertainty. But I also saw a version of that that, um, effectively had the same experiment and you would make a decision. But people were told in the beginning, no one will ever know what your decision is. You don’t have to tell anyone. You have to share it like you write it down and put it away. There’s there will be zero social context. Social stakes at all. It eliminated the bias away from uncertainty.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:23:26] Mhm.
Jonathan Fields: [00:23:28] You know so which is kind of like it ties in to what we’re saying here because like it wasn’t that people were afraid of making a decision when they didn’t have all the information. The stakes were high. It was, it seemed, at least from the data, that they were afraid of making a decision without good information. Stakes were high, being wrong and then being socially judged for having made the wrong call.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:23:49] That’s the big one. Yeah, the social judgment is the big one. Uh, the amygdala is an interesting brain region, which is the source of so much debate in the field about what exactly it it is for. Um, and, uh, and people have concluded there seems to be an emerging consensus that it has to do with just emotional significance of it. Without it, we don’t register an emotional significance of something. So like, psychopaths really don’t activate their amygdala that much. You know.
Jonathan Fields: [00:24:18] I guess that would make.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:24:18] Sense. Yeah, yeah. Everything’s like, oh, I killed that person. Okay. That’s not there’s not much emotional significance. There probably should be. Um, not all psychopaths are serial killers, of course, but. Yeah. Um, but. Yeah. So it’s an interesting, um, finding. And, um, and for people who suffer with neuroticism, um, where their brains are constantly feeding them negative thoughts and anxiety, they would prefer, um, a certain negative outcome over an uncertain outcome. That could be good. They can’t stand the uncertainty.
Jonathan Fields: [00:24:54] Yeah. Yeah. They just want to know. Either way, it’s. Yeah. Even if it’s bad. Yeah, I’d rather have that.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:24:59] And they prefer the devil, you know.
Jonathan Fields: [00:25:01] Right. Huh. Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense. And I think probably anyone joining us now has been that person.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:25:08] Yeah, I would.
Jonathan Fields: [00:25:09] Hope it’s like nobody’s immune.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:25:10] Um, I hope we don’t have too many psychopaths listening.
Jonathan Fields: [00:25:13] No. Uh, one of the other things you tease out in the context of this, and then we’ll bounce over to the empowerment side, is this notion of, um, needing to please other people?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:25:22] Yes.
Jonathan Fields: [00:25:24] And, of course, nobody’s experienced that before.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:25:27] Oh, man, this is just such a tough one. Um, for for for for kind, empathetic humans. This is a this is an internal an internal struggle and, um, one that there’s no quick fix. And I don’t think there should be a quick fix, because those who try to do the quick fix, you’ll see an overcompensation effect where, like, no more Mr. Nice Guy, you know, and then it’s like, I’m sick of people pleasing and they they become an asshole. And that’s not the way. That’s not the answer. But you are people pleasing whenever you’re totally putting your own needs aside, uh, for someone else, um, in a way that causes you harm, you know, you’re allowed to stand up for yourself. You’re allowed to have healthy assertiveness. I call it healthy selfishness, actually, in the book. Um, I think a lot of people, people pleasing tendencies could learn some of the tools of healthy of of healthy selfishness and not feel like, um, they’re always being selfish when they’re just taking care of themselves.
Jonathan Fields: [00:26:29] Yeah. And there is a, again, social context, right?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:26:32] Yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:26:32] There’s so much cultural stuff, so much, um, around that orientation of, like, you’re just doing that for you. Yeah.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:26:40] There are a lot of.
Jonathan Fields: [00:26:41] At a time like this. Also, it’s like, seriously.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:26:43] There are a lot of shoulds. Um, yeah. Like you probably get tons of requests. Um, and do you ever feel bad, like saying no to a request, even though you just know you don’t have the time for it? I mean, you’re allowed to to just be this, be the in charge of your own schedule.
Jonathan Fields: [00:27:03] Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. And this has been a journey for me, and I would imagine for you as well. Um, you know, I, I’ve been doing this I’ve been public facing in some way, shape or form for like two decades or so now and amazing. Um, and yeah, you do have a lot of folks who are like, they resonate with something that you might share or a way that you see the world or a piece of insight or information and and there’s a sense that maybe that person can help me. And, um, and it’s a really interesting phenomenon to have people who, you don’t know reach out to you and say, like, I’m in need. Um, and I feel like something you shared really made a difference for me. It landed for me. Is there any way that I could xyz. We could work together.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:27:44] We would. I get a lot is. Hey, can we put ten minutes on a zoom call so I can pick your brain?
Jonathan Fields: [00:27:50] Yeah.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:27:50] And that’s a trigger for me.
Jonathan Fields: [00:27:52] And it’s a beautiful because you would love to be able to say yes to all of that, you know, and it’s a like it is a real privilege and a blessing to be in a position for people.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:27:59] And it’s also a trigger, right.
Jonathan Fields: [00:28:01] So how do you handle that now? Like are you when you say it’s a trigger? Like, do you still have an emotional reaction?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:28:08] I haven’t yeah, I feel a great conflict and great inner conflict. Um, which maybe is okay if that, if the feeling never goes away, you know, because then maybe you reach a state of indifference. And I’m not convinced I ever want to reach a state of indifference to human, my fellow humans. But, um, there is like this feeling of like, you know, uh, my mom not to go to a real psychoanalytic level, but, you know, like her. Oh, just call me honey whenever you want. All I want is ten minutes of your time. It’s never only ten minutes of my time. You know, it’s like, energetically, I have to experience that. And then. And then the conversation usually goes on, and then I. Once I’m in it, I feel bad. I say like, hey, I really have to go now. I really have to go now. I keep saying it over and over again. I have to go now. And so that was a little bit of a trauma for me, you know, is kind of feeling trapped, right? In a situation where I can’t go I can’t leave a conversation. And so it’s it’s hard, you know, with complete strangers. I don’t I don’t have any I mean, where’s the trust there. You know, like, I don’t know who you are at all, you know, um, so, I mean, I, I try to help as much as I can through email. Yeah. I’m like, hey, ask me your question through email. Like, do you have to talk to me?
Jonathan Fields: [00:29:22] Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s also I found it really helpful maybe anyone joining us, um, to be fairly public about your boundaries? Um, you know, I remember literally, you know, like, I write a Substack and I wrote a piece and it generated a lot of comments. And in a subsequent piece, somebody wrote in the comments, hey, you know, like, if you really care so much, why didn’t you answer my comment in that last piece? And I was like, like an arrow through my heart. I was like, oh my, a terrible person. Like, wow. Like I didn’t answer that person, am I? Um, but then also, like, I’m very clear at this point that, um, you know, I have a general policy, so I don’t make sort of like like I have my general policy is if I’m offering something on a platform, and that platform also happens to have functionality for direct messaging. To me, just because that functionality exists doesn’t mean that I need to make that another door into my psyche. Um, and I make that just an across the board policy, and I actually, I responded in the comment, I say, listen, I completely understand your feelings. Thank you so much for sharing it. I really honor that and appreciate it. Just I want you to understand more clearly just how I approach this, you know, because, um, honoring my own personal like, commitments and responsibilities and also my commitment to making and creation and offering is so strong and it takes all of my time. I’ve just created a very clear, universal boundary that I don’t respond to DMs and to messages. And it’s not it’s it’s not even you. It’s not. I don’t even see it. So I hope you understand that and maybe even invite you to explore, like, like, do you have a similar policy or boundary? And this person was actually appreciative. Like I just thank you. Like I understand. I understand and I agree. And now I understand. This wasn’t personal also.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:31:05] That’s what you’re doing is depersonalizing that for people. Um, you know, that’s beautiful. I think that was it. Oliver Burkeman who said that? Uh, yeah. Creating that’s the best way to do it is create a general rule and make it very clear to people. That’s your general rule. And so everyone knows what’s up. Um, that’s that’s the best you can do. Um, but, you know, some people really do just take the path of just saying as their general rule, they’re like, look, I’m an asshole, you know, and there’s actually a certain freedom in that, you know, just just saying, you know what? I’m not what you all want me to be in this world. Um, and, uh, take it or leave it. And there’s a certain attraction to that way of being as well that I. You know, I don’t want to rule that out. You’re being really nice and polite, but I’m like, you know, maybe I’ll try experiment a year or the year of being an asshole and write a book about it. That experience, I feel like that’s the thing, my friend, you know? A.j. Jacobs. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that’s something he would do.
Jonathan Fields: [00:31:59] I could totally.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:31:59] See the year of being an asshole, but I think it could be kind of fun. There’s a certain kind of freedom there.
Jonathan Fields: [00:32:04] I mean, it is interesting just getting crystal clear and seeing how people respond. And but it’s also really interesting test. Right. Because what you’re effectively saying to people is, is the value that I’m able to offer you, because I’m really focusing on doing the work and then sharing like what I do. Is that enough alone to to give you something that’s worthy, even if you know that, like there’s no other access beyond that. So it’s an interesting experiment to run. I think a lot of people would probably want to run something like that. They might not call it my year of being an asshole, but effectively it’s like the same thing.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:32:34] Would that make a good Ted talk? Wouldn’t it?
Jonathan Fields: [00:32:35] It probably would, actually. Um, and we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Let’s kind of turn the page a little bit to the empowerment side. Yeah. We talk about the victim mindset and some of the contributors that go into this. Yeah. The things that raise their head. And you said early on you’re like, this is really about empowerment. So there’s data within the context of this experience, within that experience of a victim mindset that we can turn around and use as that activation energy. Um, you know, so some of the things that you talk about and this is like you describe as finding the light within, um, it’s kind of like the opening move here. So take me into this.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:33:12] Um, well, there are parts of us that aren’t broken, and I think that if we focus so much on our victimhood, we can not get in touch with those parts of ourselves. You know, in a lot of ways where you put your attention is where you put your life. Right. Uh, and a lot of people really identify so strongly, like, oh, my trauma, my trauma when I was two. And that just that’s their overarching thing for how they live and experiences. Whenever they’re interpreted, they interpret everything through that lens. If they’re thinking, oh, do I want to go on this trip to no, I can’t fly my trauma when I was two. Um, and it’s like, okay, well, do you have any parts of you, any character strengths that, uh, maybe that are craving exploration. Um, there are parts of you that that values creativity, values, meaning, um, you know, are you letting those parts of you suffer? You know, by only focusing on this small part of you, it’s not all of you, you know. And so that’s what I mean by that. Finding the light within. And, um, there’s some cool examples, um, the Ottoman brothers and their friend, uh, Gonzalez, um, go around to, um, schools where a lot of these kids, uh, underserved communities are really written off, and just the kids themselves probably feel in a lot of ways broken. Um, and he teaches them yoga, they teach them yoga and mindfulness techniques, and, um, they start to feel good about themselves. They start to, like, realize that they have resiliency, they have coping skills, they have a future. You know, it’s, uh, in some ways, my book is kind of a response to a cultural kind of sense of helplessness I see in a lot of even underserved communities. Um, uh, you know, minorities. You know, I, you know, and I try to make clear, I believe in the higher potential of all people, uh, regardless of your skin color or where you came from, you know. And I think the more we can kind of give people hope, um, the better.
Jonathan Fields: [00:35:14] Yeah. I mean, the, um, the notion of, of helplessness is really interesting also. I think, you know, we’re having this conversation at a moment in culture in the world where some.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:35:25] Moment we’re going through a moment, man.
Jonathan Fields: [00:35:27] We are. And I think a lot of people are looking out and they’re like the feeling of helplessness has probably never been higher for so many people. They’re looking at and they’re like, this is so big. This is so heavy. This is so complex. What can I do? Like I’m literally there’s nothing that I can do to make a difference to like. And there’s this feeling of helplessness. Um.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:35:47] And you don’t always have to do something either.
Jonathan Fields: [00:35:51] So tell them. Yeah, tease that out.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:35:53] Your value in this world is not always tied up 1 to 1 with what you’re doing in the world to help others. I mean, I think we need to get rid of that mindset. Um, I saw once, uh, I forget what it was, but, um, someone said the real key to life is find ways to have joy and find ways to bring joy to others. And I’m like, down with I actually like that. I don’t I mean, you know, you can watch one of these pro podcasters and feel like your life is crap because you haven’t gotten up at 5:00 in the morning and that you didn’t like, do you know, 50,000 burpees by nine? Yeah, sure. You can feel like crap about yourself, but I’m not convinced they have it figured it out, even as though they think they have it figured out. I’m not convinced that’s the key to life. You know, I think the key to life is experiencing it. Life. To be grateful for the consciousness that we’ve been given, to be grateful for others who are on this planet with us and who are, you know, who are we’re all in this together, you know, um, and that feeling of helplessness sometimes comes from a false sense that you can only feel hopeful, um, to the extent to which you’re tackling your goals. But not everything in life is gay oriented and needing to be goal oriented in order. That’s a very masculine, you know. It really is.
Jonathan Fields: [00:37:07] So tell me, the other, the other.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:37:08] The alternative to a goal driven life.
Jonathan Fields: [00:37:10] Yeah. Or to just like the alternative approach to helplessness, like if it’s not about what do I do to remove this feeling of helplessness from me? Like how do I reframe that?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:37:20] What experiences, um, do I want to create for myself today? And for those around me, what kind of feeling do I want to, um, how do I want to show up? In what kind of energy? Um, if I’m going down the street to the coffee shop, um, what frame of mind do I want to be in when I enter this coffee shop? Um, do I want to be on the lookout or have an openness for connection Action for, um, for bringing some sort of joy to someone. I mean, I, um, I recently took up magic, uh, a mentalism, and.
Jonathan Fields: [00:37:54] I saw that on your website.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:37:56] Nice, nice. It’s a thing. It’s a real thing. It’s like I’m so into it and the reason why I’m into it, and I almost feel like it’s like, the thing I’m most excited about these days is because no matter how crappy my day is or whatever’s going on, wherever I go, I have something in my pocket that can bring someone joy. You know, um, you know, and whatever it is, whatever you have in your pocket to bring others joy or bring yourself joy amidst the crap of life. I mean, I think that’s what it’s all about. Um, so I really do kind of want to push back against this, this bro goal, goal oriented, crushing it, uh, culture that makes people feel, um, as though their value is only tied up to how many things they’ve checked off their to do list. And if that makes it a little me a little controversial for saying that, so be it. I’ll work on my people pleasing skills, but I really that’s where I feel aligned these days.
Jonathan Fields: [00:38:49] Yeah, I mean that lands well with me also. Like I love like I have big things on my list. You know, there are big aspirations that I want. And at the same time, you know, I love sitting on my front porch when I can catch the sunrise and just sort of like, see that first glimmer of light and hear like the birds starting to come alive in the background.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:39:08] And then you realize this is life.
Jonathan Fields: [00:39:10] Yeah.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:39:10] This is life, right? It’s like life doesn’t exist in the trying to reach my goals, right?
Jonathan Fields: [00:39:16] It’s like all the doing basically lands me back in that seat, being able to do the exact same thing. It’s like, huh?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:39:23] Like, where is life? Really? Really. You know?
Jonathan Fields: [00:39:26] Yeah. It’s not out there. It’s like, not the thing that happens after the big thing, you know, it’s every moment along the way, as cliche as that is. Um, I guess there’s a reason that people keep repeating it to generations. Um, yeah. You brought up something also, and this is in the book as well. Um, it’s this notion of, um, not just having oneself there. I think the phrasing was a symphony of selves.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:39:48] Um, yeah. I’m glad you.
Jonathan Fields: [00:39:49] Brought that.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:39:49] Up. Glad you brought that up. Um, what is Walt Whitman has a phrase like, if I contain multitudes, do I contain multitudes? Yeah, I contain multitudes. Like, what are you gonna do about it? It is. It is what it is. Um, and this idea or notion that we have a real self. I really want to challenge that some spiritual, you know, self-help space, like, get in touch with your real self. I mean, I think it’s all real, but I think we have certain aspects of ourself that feel more centered, grounded, alive. There’s a fertile soil there for growth. And I think other sides of ourself that feel like it’s entering like a black pit, um, maybe of despair, but also addictions I think is like entering a black. It’s a black pit of greed in a way. You constantly need that thing. You need that thing, that thing. It’s a greedy feeling, you know? Um, but, you know, like I said, we talked about this earlier, playing with the different energies of your different selves and finding the cells. They’re like, oh, I like being there and working. Committing to living a life where you’re there is as often as possible, I think, as a life well lived. Mhm.
Jonathan Fields: [00:40:58] Where do you land then in the content. Is there like I feel like the hot thing in therapy for probably the last five, ten years or so has been ifs, internal family systems, parts work. Yeah.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:41:07] A lot of people.
Jonathan Fields: [00:41:08] Really like to a number of people who are sort of like in that space.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:41:11] A lot of people really like it.
Jonathan Fields: [00:41:12] What do you think’s going on there that it seems?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:41:14] Interestingly enough, I’m currently seeing a therapist who specializes in ifs. Yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:41:19] So what’s your take? I mean, is, does that tie into what we’re talking about here, or is that something entirely different?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:41:23] I think it’s relevant. I do I do think it’s relevant. Um, and Dick Schwartz, the originator of IFS, has been on my podcast and did a, um, session with me about my fear of women, uh, about this particular thing happened to me in summer camp where this woman in age 12. This this girl, uh, rejected me and made me really shy talking to women. Anyway, he did this, like, he got in touch with that part. Um, I think there’s a lot of wisdom there. Um, I think that it’s also important to recognize that this this ifs. Isn’t that scientifically validated? It’s not that well accepted and amongst like the, you know, serious scientists. Um, because just because it hasn’t been tested rigorously and scientifically, but there’s got to be something there. When you look at the way that it resonates with people who go through it, even even me, you know, when, when, when Dick Schwartz did it with me on my show, I felt like I wanted to cry. I felt like I released, I wanted to release that self once and for all. Um, what I also like about it is it, um, it is so in line with a lot of other traditions. Um, so, uh, this, this notion of, um, facing your beautiful For monsters. Um, which is a very Buddhist kind of concept. Uh, Rinpoche, you know, uh, has, has, has, has wrote a book about that, um, getting into and doing the handshake practice with your beautiful. I see it associated with that. If you can really make deep contact and really try to understand and wrap your head around what a particular self wants, uh, what is it really asking for, or what is it really craving and not being scared of it and not being scared of that self and even treating it with tenderness. Um, there is a real softening of it and, uh, and a wholeness feeling that you can have. So yeah, I like it.
Jonathan Fields: [00:43:13] Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting, right? Because, you know, the, the, the fundamental, if I understand it properly, like the fundamental idea with part’s work is that, you know, like we are we are made up of a whole bunch of different parts, and those parts have, have different jobs. And often they feel like those jobs have been set in motion. When we were little kids, you know, when something happened to us like, oh, I need to go protect you. And that forms a pattern that just kind of stays with you for life.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:43:38] It’s like the fireman, right?
Jonathan Fields: [00:43:39] Yeah, exactly. You know, um, and so we have all these little parts running around us with roles that have been assigned, like oftentimes like decades before. And they’re still doing them, even though our life is very different, our circumstances are different. We are different, yet they’re still in there fighting the fight. Um, but my curiosity, which kind of wraps it around to this conversation, too, is like, what is what is the part that is aware of all all of those other parts?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:44:03] I have this conversation with Corey all the time. All the time. Um, I want to think this through in a in a different way. Um, you know, Dick is very big into saying we all have multiple personalities, and that’s a big part of all this. But I actually think that that’s not true for everyone. There are people who’ve done the work in such a way that I think they’re really well integrated, and I don’t think they have all these different parts that are constantly pulling them in different directions. I actually see a great like consistency of how of who they are. And a very it’s very clear, you know what that uh, sort of whatever that unitary self is that that is the we’ll call it another part. Jake would say that’s just another part, the integrator. Okay, fine. Hey, I know that’s what he would say and that’s fine. Okay. If that’s what we want to say is just another part. That’s the integrator. But I see some people who are more in touch with that, that, that meta, the meta part than they are with the lower order parts.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:45:01] Um, and I want to be like those people. So I want to study those people. And, um, and I think what’s really interesting about them is that, uh, they hear the other parts, they, they, they hear they’re like, I see you, I hear you, but I have no desire to engage further with it. And just talking to people who I’ve sought out, people who I think are great, you they have a they have a real clear, unified self, a real sense of mission. Purpose. They’re like, I’m not going to mess this up. I think Kobe Bryant was like that, uh, maybe later in his life. You know, um, he’s, you know, he’s like, I’m just going to do I’m going to, you know, put away all the crap, you know? You know, maybe the bad sides of me and just go all in on what the part that the part that I really want to engage in the most frequently. Um, and we think of lots of other examples. That name came up, came up to me because I knew him personally in middle school and high school.
Jonathan Fields: [00:45:55] I mean, it’s interesting, right? Because there, um, this word equanimity has really been in and out of my life a lot lately.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:46:01] Yeah, I love this word. I love.
Jonathan Fields: [00:46:03] It. And I think a lot of times, if you’re familiar with the word like, we tend to define it as finding a way to, to to find center and to be at peace no matter what’s happening around you, without the need to grasp and control it. But I think part of what’s going on here also is and again, it’s probably just my overlay here. I can’t really define it in a detailed way, but part I think the conversation is here, like that, like that person who’s really able to touch equanimity on a consistent basis. Maybe it’s not just about the external circumstance. It’s about like, okay, so there are there are these other pieces of me. There are these parts of me, there are these and they feel like they have jobs to do also. And, and I see you and and and cool like good on you. I see you and I’m still gonna just sit here and breathe and be okay. Like it’s the internal and the external. That equanimity is about not just being okay with the circumstances in the world around you has that land.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:46:53] Well, it’s got to be the internal and the external. No, I think that that’s got to be right.
Jonathan Fields: [00:46:58] Yeah, yeah. Earlier in our conversation and this is something that you like, you come to in the empowerment conversation too, is this notion of, um, I don’t know if it’s being of service of like finding things that you’re actually like, put you in a state of gratitude and generosity. Um, when you’re in experiencing a victim mindset, how does this help?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:47:20] Uh, grateful. I like to refer to gratefulness, uh, rather than gratitude. Gratitude is something that you can, uh, that you have to wait for something to happen to you and then be like, oh, I’m so great. I have so much gratitude for this. But gratefulness is an orientation towards life. Um, no matter what happens to you, um, you can kind of see. Well, how does this what’s the upside here? What’s what can I learn from this situation? Um, what can I still be grateful for? Even amongst amongst. I just made up a word amidst this. Among amongst amongst. I always invent words that are silly. Um, there’s all this chaos. Um. My friend Christy Nelson wrote a wonderful book called Wake Up grateful, uh, which is about her journey, uh, with stage four cancer and how she was committed to waking, still waking up grateful every day, regardless of the uncertainty and the fear she had about her life and what she was still going to be grateful for. So I think that harnessing that practice takes you away from a victim mindset. You’re not if you get your if you get yourself caught up in in this, this mindset that you know you’re going down a path that doesn’t lead to hope, doesn’t lead to connection with others.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:48:35] Um, you know, take a pause, um, and enter a different way, a different a gratefulness mindset. And you can enter gratefulness mindset like that. Um, it could be as simple as you catch yourself going down the mental pathway. Oh, I have to do this today. I have to do that today. I had to do that today. God, let’s curse my assistant for adding that to my schedule. And then you go, you know what? Nope nope nope. Let me let me think I get to do that. I get to do that. I get to do that. Oh my gosh, I get to help at 7 p.m. tonight. I get to have that on my calendar and help that person. And in an instant you’ve shifted into a different mindset. So I think it’s possible, and I wouldn’t have thought so if I, if I didn’t write this book.
Jonathan Fields: [00:49:20] Yeah, yeah. And I, I love how simple things like that are because like a lot of times you’re like, okay, so what’s the technique, the process, the strategy. Like give me the whole method self-talk. Right. And it’s like literally change a word.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:49:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:49:33] It’s like, oh wait. But then you hear something like that, you’re like, ah, it can’t be that easy.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:49:38] Try it. You’ll see it is that easy, right?
Jonathan Fields: [00:49:40] Because people are just like, if it’s that simple, it’s it couldn’t possibly make a difference. And I love the fact that you’re saying here saying actually does.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:49:48] It totally does. Attention.
Jonathan Fields: [00:49:49] Yeah. Um, somebody finding themselves now in this victim mindset, um, is there a sort of like a, an easy first step in, like you’re you’re sitting here, you’re listening, you’re like, oh, wait, this is me. Yeah. Like everything I’m hearing right now, this is actually landing in a way that I kind of wish it wasn’t good.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:50:14] I would say awesome.
Jonathan Fields: [00:50:15] Right. And and then what would you say? And then.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:50:18] Yeah, I mean, it’s great that you have that self-awareness and now try to be more mindful of when like catch yourself. When you start to enter this mindset. You know, we’ve defined it pretty well in this episode. And think to yourself, um, okay, um, I am way personalizing this situation. Am I? Or even ask yourself, am I overly personalizing this thing that happened to me? Is this really, um, am I over generalizing this? I know that you know, this this I got, uh, turned down by something, you know, or, like a job opportunity or a person. But am I over generalizing to think that, like, everyone’s going to turn me down? Yeah, I probably am. You know, like, just, like, challenge yourself and you’ll realize that that gives you a greater sense of agency.
Jonathan Fields: [00:51:06] Um, yeah.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:51:08] Challenge yourself to be better.
Jonathan Fields: [00:51:11] In a gentle.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:51:12] Gentle way, not.
Jonathan Fields: [00:51:14] In a non aggressive.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:51:15] Goggins.
Jonathan Fields: [00:51:15] Goggins way. Um, yeah. And even that, like what we were just talking about, literally like, can you change a word in a sentence that takes you from place of, yeah, like obligation or lament to I get, you know, um, like, is there a grateful, like something where you can just look around or look inside and be like, yeah, like, I appreciate that. Um, even though, like, I’m not in love with what just happened in this moment, there’s something like. And maybe you can even, like, tell a different story about it in the moment. It’s like, huh?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:51:44] And also I find in a, in a cheeky way, I like to lower my expectations about life. Yeah. I have a section of my chapter of chapter one. The intro says warning you might have a case of life, right? Look, you know, if you think that you’re supposed to be happy all the time or that like if you’re feeling anxiety, that that’s an indication you have to immediately go to a therapist and get medicine as opposed to like, okay, I’m feeling a human emotion now, okay? I’m feeling another human emotion now. In ten minutes I’m going to feel completely different. Human emotion or traffic sucks or this is it. It’ll get better, you know? And there’s a very Buddhist thing there, obviously, about impermanence and everything changes. But also there’s a point here about not identifying so much with these things, um, now and forever.
Jonathan Fields: [00:52:29] Yeah, I love that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I’ve asked you this question in the past, but I’ll ask it again. It’s years later. And the this container of Good Life Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:52:41] I wonder how I answered it before. Um, but now I would probably say, um. I want to repeat what I said earlier. I think living a good life is finding ways to experience joy, and to share that joy with others.
Jonathan Fields: [00:52:59] Thank you.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:53:00] Yeah, I think it maybe has changed a little bit. Yeah.
Jonathan Fields: [00:53:03] I’m going to look back and check it myself. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, man.
Scott Barry Kaufman: [00:53:06] Thank you.
Jonathan Fields: [00:53:07] We’re all set. Woohoo! Hey, if you love this episode a safe bet you’ll also love the conversation we had with Brené Brown about embracing vulnerability to fuel creative growth. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by, Alejandro Ramirez, and Troy Young. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music, and of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you’re still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seven-second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that’s awesome too. But just one person even then, invite them to talk with you about what you’ve both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time. I’m Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.